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**Don Scowen** · 12-14-2007, 07:09 AM

Originally posted by DanCz View Post

For Don

These copies actually first appeared in the late/mid sixties

That early!!!

Sorry I didn't know that, I didn't see them for until quite some time after they appeared then.... Thanks Dan

.

Cheers
Don

**DanCz** · 12-14-2007, 07:30 AM

A great many copy enamel badges appeared at this time. Sometimes they were described as found during factory renovations or else hitherto unknown variants. The quality of the workmanship was extremely good - - - the pin plates often mirrored those on original pieces - - - - put simply they were made to decieve !! Remember back then there were almost no reference books or Forums such as this and also that genuine Third Reich material was still relatively plentiful. Few suspected anything untoward back then.

Those copies are now almost fifty years old and so you will understand the difficulties collectors face today.

My "fondest" memory is of a shop in Lincoln selling (by the bucket) HJ diamonds in every colour of the rainbow - - beautifully aged pieces too - - - maker was "Otto Hoffman". Then there was "Werner Redo" or just "Redo" - - man I could go on.

**Martin Harding** · 12-14-2007, 07:59 AM

I see that Bill now states The DJ Jubilee first appeared in the 1960's yet Don stated resolutely that the DJ Jubilee first appeared in the 1970's. Does that mean Don is wrong ? and perhaps Tieste the worlds leading expert is correct ??? in fact both contradictions are incorrect as this badge is not a fantasy peice and was acknowledged by Rudolf Kahl who worked with the late great Klietmann. Are they wrong too? the above contradictions should speak volumes.
Don accused me of misleading collectors that they might go buy these so called "fantasy peices" but if they are period as all the "real experts state" then collectors will sell their originals for peanuts thinking they are fakes> The reason the back plates and the pin assemblies are "spot on" on the DJ Jubilee's is because they are period. I think in future facts should be presented for any debate to have any real significance. If leading experts acknowledge that the Badge is not a fantasy peice where is the argument and evidence to contradict them? I don't see anything on these posts.

Hello Belinda, since everyone else appears to have ignored your post. I would be happy to reply to your statement. Taking in to consideration what you as a Lady and James as an obvious outstanding Gentleman stated I have this comment and it is one I will now adhere to.

I AM SURE DON KNOWS BEST, AND I AM HAPPY TO LEAVE IT AT THAT

My final statement on this matter is however significant, how in the world sarcasm and insults aimed at me proves that the DJ Abzeichen is a fantasy piece is beyond my comprehension. I publicly appologise, especiall to James and Belinda for allowing this to drag out too long. I am sure people come on the forum to escape the horror's of the real world and relax. if a debate cannot be conducted in a civil manner with both sides been considered then iin actual fact it is not a debate.
Regards Martin

**Don D.** · 12-14-2007, 08:07 AM

So did they appear in the 60s or 10+ years ago?

**Martin Harding** · 12-14-2007, 08:17 AM

Genuine

Don, neither, although many fakes exist of the 50 Jahre Deutsche jagerschaft 1888 -1938 the ones that are genuine are period Third Reich Badges not fantasy pieces. In was often common practice for German & Austrian Badges like these to be manufactured for the Jubilee.
Regards Martin

**belinda** · 12-14-2007, 09:10 AM

Thank you Martin for acknowledging what i have said.
At least one of you are man enough to read it and take note.

regards,
belinda

**Garry M.** · 12-14-2007, 09:26 AM

Originally posted by belinda View Post

Don and Martin this is for you both.
I think that you should both call a truce and end the bickering on here. I know that you both think that you are right and neither one of you will back down, so just agree to disagree. I don't like to see grown men arguing like a bunch of school boys in a school playground.
Regarding schmusi having a go at martin for using bold text, well that hasn't got anything to do with the badge and that is just plain trouble making. I really think that he is out of order for writng this.
We are here to learn on this site and i really think that this has got out of hand. I feel that Don and Martin both need to step back from this thread as nothing is being achieved here.
This is my opinion anyway. I don't surpose either one of you will listen to it coming from a woman.

regards,
belinda

P.S. MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE !!!

Firstly: this and all other forums are discussion platforms - that's what they are there for. Stifle that and you may as well not bother having them. Whether you think they were bickering like schoolboys is a subjective opinion. I saw/see it as a valuable conversation which is of course also just a subjective opinion.

Secondly: my point about Martin's use of bold text was not the main thrust of my original post. I just didn't like his use of rolling eyes in his response and that is why I returned the compliment.

Man enough for you?

**DanCz** · 12-14-2007, 09:38 AM

I do not under estimate the contribution made by both Kahl and Kleitman to our hobby but subsequent research has cast doubt on the work of both.

**Martin Harding** · 12-14-2007, 10:48 AM

Debates Should Be Debates

Belinda, Thank you I try to acknowledge everyone it is basic manners
Schmusi, the rolling eyes was to lighten things up actually and regarding your comments on my Book they were not justified if as if you actually read the post carefully you will see I have backed up my statements with hard facts. Not once has Don. It seems to me he is in a contest where there has to be a winner and contradicts his statements in desperation , this is not what these forums are about and everyone should be able to express an opinion advanced collector and beginner alike.
Your remarks about my Book were not appropriate or significant to this debate and as it is not yet published nothing is set in stone yet, the Badge in question already has an entire page devoted to it. People are not born with knowledge it is a learning curve and the real experts are the ones who do not try to force their points of view on debates.
Dancz, I take on board what you are saying but the fact remains to contradict leading experts you have to have facts, not specualtion. Don was adament thaese Badges were fantasy and produce in the 1970’s yet when you stated 1960’s he did not dispute the fact and stood corrected.
Regards Martin

**DanCz** · 12-14-2007, 11:00 AM

Some misunderstanding has unfortunately crept in for which I am responsible - - the enamel pins I was referring to were the Hitler Youth pins featured in the other post. I apologise but stand by my comments.

Few would dispute that the Kahl books are seriously flawed. Klietman's contribution was immense but he was no saint !!

**Martin Harding** · 12-14-2007, 11:28 AM

With all due respect Don stated the Badge in question was a fantasy piece not manufactured until the 1970's How do either of you explain then that some of the authors make reference to it pre 1970. How would that be possible? to make reference to a Badge not yet in existence.
OK, perhaps if we concentrate on the DJ Jubilee Badge in question here are I think perhaps valid points.
1) There exists many German and Austrian Badges to acknowledge 50 Jubilee's and the DJ 50 year is no exception to the rule.
2) yes, indeed there are many reproductions of the DJ badge, but as we know the debate is regarding if it is a fantasy piece or not.
3) When you can literally fake anything why in the world would they fake that Badge, there are things far more valuable to fake.
4) Ok, if Kahl, klietmann & Tieste are wrong this has to be looked at in detail. Firstly proof would be needed. Don's claim that they did not surface until 1970 might be correct regarding copies, but we are not debating that we are debating if the Badge is a fantasy peice.
5) The one's I have encountered that I deemed original had correct back plates and pin assemblies (Don accuses me of going around in circles) but this is fact. I have encountered many fakes of this Badge too and it would not take an advanced collector to be able to detect they were not period.
6) If as Don states they were not seen on the market until 1970 >>>> and here is the big one>>>>>>>> how in the world is there reference Books illustrating the exact Badge pre 1970?
I hope these points raised are of value amd useful input to be considered.

**Don D.** · 12-14-2007, 11:28 AM

Assuming Houston Coates is the "big hunting collector" referred to in the linked thread he says they appeared 10+ years ago. Now which is it, 10, 50, or 60 years ago or are we talking about totally different badges here? I think if a period photo or other documentation shows up it will nail it down but absense of said period photo isn't a killer. Look at how long it took to find a photo of the Retired Pilots Badge.

**Garry M.** · 12-14-2007, 11:35 AM

Originally posted by Martin Harding View Post

Belinda, Thank you I try to acknowledge everyone it is basic manners
Schmusi, the rolling eyes was to lighten things up actually and regarding your comments on my Book they were not justified if as if you actually read the post carefully you will see I have backed up my statements with hard facts. Not once has Don. It seems to me he is in a contest where there has to be a winner and contradicts his statements in desperation , this is not what these forums are about and everyone should be able to express an opinion advanced collector and beginner alike.
Your remarks about my Book were not appropriate or significant to this debate and as it is not yet published nothing is set in stone yet, the Badge in question already has an entire page devoted to it. People are not born with knowledge it is a learning curve and the real experts are the ones who do not try to force their points of view on debates.
Schmusi, there is a contradiction indeed if you saw valuable conversation the comments made towards me have no foundation.
Dancz, I take on board what you are saying but the fact remains to contradict leading experts you have to have facts, not specualtion. Don was adament thaese Badges were fantasy and produce in the 1970’s yet when you stated 1960’s he did not dispute the fact and stood corrected.
Regards Martin

My comments were less about your book and more about the way I perceived you to be conducting yourself within the discussion Martin because of course it would be silly of me to say that your book isn't worth a read when it doesn't actually exist. The problem with your theory (and hence your whole argument) on these badges (about which I incidentally know absolutely nothing) is that your hard facts seem to be nothing more than quotations from books. All of us have the simple choice of whether to believe these books or indeed to see them as nothing more than the respective author's opinion however useful they may be. If I have a fake badge which is shown as real in a reference book does that make the badge real or is it still a fake? That is what discussions like this thread should be about and I think that this is what you seem unwilling to accept. If I have misinterpreted you then please accept my apologies but that is how I see your argument here.

I do concede though that my involvement is indeed adding nothing to the discussion at hand so I'll politely back away

**Martin Harding** · 12-14-2007, 11:46 AM

Dj

Sorry, perhaps I just misunderstood you ? this thread is with reference to the DJ Jubilee Badge been a fantasy piece or not. And although not relevant to the topic I cannot actually see where my conduct has not been appropriate. As for my refering to other Books & author's, It is indeed a very important factor considering Don states the so called "fantasy peice" was not seen until 1970, yet some of the references are written pre 1970, hence it is a critical point to make. As you stated your self if you are not conversant with the subject why make comments?
Regards Martin

**Don Scowen** · 12-14-2007, 11:56 AM

Firstly lets clear some points here. Firstly I had agreed to James' request to stay silent on this & end it. Martin was the one who had to continue it even though he claims to have so much respect for James......

As I expalined to in reply to Dan's post, I had never seen the badges in the 1960's, it was around 10 years later that they appeared in large numbers (some silver hallmarked) for great amounts of money. Then they dropped in price considerably once the marked was flooded with them & people caught on to them. I assumed that Dan had seen them earlier, now he has cleared up the confusion that he was not speaking specifically about these badge.

Where is this "Exact same badge" you claim to have shown in a book pre 1970? The illustration you showed from the period publication Martin was not "the exact same badge". Apart from the DJV in a cirlce there is no similarity.......

Belinda, I apologise, I missed your post, probably because I was blinded by the bright white of Martin's use of bold which he obviously thinks makes him look an expert.

Who knows what Houston meant in his thread, 10+ he states. I wasn't party to that discussion but he does clearly state thay they didn't exist in the TR period which is my point.

Dan is correct, the work of Kleitman & Kahl is important but has become a little disputed.

Finally Martin please stop using the phrase "with due respect" as it is obvious that you do not have the slightest respect for anyone who has a different opinion to yourself. I notice that you are no longer replying to your thread on the rare aluminium Nürnberg variant......

Cheers
Don

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