Tyrol Shooting Badge

[glock26]

thanks again Don.

much appreciated.


cheers, del.

[CM Alexander]

I realize this is an older thread...but it seemed appropriate. I just picked these up today and they are not in my area of collecting at the moment. I am going to be moving them along...any help with a fair value to place on them?

Any help would be appreciated gents!

Cheers,
Chrys

[CM Alexander]

...

[soldon]

Came across this cache of 12 Tirol Shooting Badges in a antique shop, I have to buy on a all or nothing basis - reading through the thread Don mentions in post No.60 a Reutte 1944 with oak-leaves fake shooting badge. One of the badges is a Reutte 1943 with oak-leaves, obviously I don't want to buy a fake, hoping the 1943 badge is genuine ? any information ? Sorry about the poor picture quality, hope to post better ones later.

[soldon]

Question - One of the Tiroler Shooting Badges shown in my above post is a gold 1942 KK-Gewehr with oak-leaves. Looking at the price listings in Detlev Niemann's 2009 Valuation Catalogue Germany 1871 -1945 the badge is valued at 100€.
In Hüskens 2010 Catalogue Badges of German Organisations 1871 - 1945 the badge is valued at 220€.
How come there's such a price difference ? Hüsken's catalogue does cover this field more comprehensively than Niemann's, but as a price guide it has mostly very over inflated prices. What are other members opinion ?

[Don Scowen]

I've sent you a PM.

However regarding the prices in Hüsken.... His prices are always all over the place. Some very rare items are undervalued while very common pieces are hugely inflated. I doubt that you would get more than 100e for the 1942 badge (or indeed any of this series with Oakleaves) if you tried to sell it.

Forgot to say, re the Reutte 1943. I would need to see an image of the reverse to be sure, but it looks ok from the front.

Cheers
Don

[soldon]

Thanks for the information Don. I did look Hüskens dealers site over, in some ways he's consistent, there are a number of badges similar to mine on offer, in post Nr 65, his asking price still 220€, Weitze's site is looking for 110€ -120€ for the badges, private sellers have them on offer in 70€ - 90€ range.
Anyway, something different, there are a couple of sharper pictures - gold Reutte 1943 shooting badge the gold leaf is flaking off, haven't been able to find out much about these, not shown in any catalogues I have. Earlier in the thread Don mentions the 1944 shooting badge was a fake, how many Reutte badges prior to 1944 there were, I don't know. The other badge is a well made W.H.W product 1940/41 both badges are without makers mark.

[Don Scowen]

Thanks for the information Don. I did look Hüskens dealers site over, in some ways he's consistent, there are a number of badges similar to mine on offer, in post Nr 65, his asking price still 220€, Weitze's site is looking for 110€ -120€ for the badges, private sellers have them on offer in 70€ - 90€ range.
Anyway, something different, there are a couple of sharper pictures - gold Reutte 1943 shooting badge the gold leaf is flaking off, haven't been able to find out much about these, not shown in any catalogues I have. Earlier in the thread Don mentions the 1944 shooting badge was a fake, how many Reutte badges prior to 1944 there were, I don't know. The other badge is a well made W.H.W product 1940/41 both badges are without makers mark.

Hi Alec,

Yes the dealers prices are pretty consistent, however if you keep an eye on the badges themselves you will notice that they have not sold for several years.... Unless a collector wants a particular grade, then they will probably remain unsold at those prices.

Regarding the two badges. As we have discussed off line, there is nothing wrong with either of the pieces you show above, apart from the Reutte having been repainted at some point.

These are zinc & the metallic finish usually disappears quite quicky leaving the badges a black or dark grey. If the pant is actually flaking, then it is a good sign that it has been repainted as the original gold does not "flake" off. It just disappears over time, or as with any badge just wears on areas of contact, but does not actually flake.

There are two forms of the fake that I am aware of. The first early version which was a direct casting from an original. This leaves the fake slightly smaller on cooling. However what is more significant is that the fakers left the plate attaching the pin on the badge when it was used as a mold, just cutting out the pin down the centre of the plate. So on the reverse of these fakes, the pin plate is part of the casting with a jagged centre area with a new pin soldered in. Easy to spot if you are looking for it (you sent me pictures of the reverse & this is not the case with this piece).

The later fake is also a casting, however the centre area behind the trees & building has been cut out leaving a silhouette effect. Again, easy to spot.

As to how many were awarded. I cannot say at this time as I have yet to find the results in the archives. However I can tell you that the shoot took place on the 12th-14th June 1943 at the Schießstand in Wängle.

Hope this helps
Don

[soldon]

Again Don, thanks for the excellent information. I did look up Wängle, its towards the edge of Reutte. Reutte being a small town with its own shooting medals, made me think, shooting and shooting clubs are still today a popular recreation, lots of villages, towns have a Schützenheim. I wonder how many in the time of the TR had their own presentation medals ? could be quite lot !

Here's a picture of three lapel badges - up till now not shown in the thread - a gold and silver 1940 standschützenverband badges 2,3cm diameter and a slightly larger (2,5cm diameter) gold 1942 standschützenverband lapel badge.

[Don Scowen]

I wonder how many in the time of the TR had their own presentation medals ? could be quite lot !

Here's a picture of three lapel badges - up till now not shown in the thread - a gold and silver 1940 standschützenverband badges 2,3cm diameter and a slightly larger (2,5cm diameter) gold 1942 standschützenverband lapel badge.

Indeed there were quite a number.

From 1941 - 1943 Kreisschießens were held in 9 areas in Tirol-Vorarlberg; Bregenz, Landeck, Schwaz, Reutte, Bludenz, Imst, Kufstein, Kitzbühel & Dornbirn. All of them awarding their own badge in 4 different grades (bronze, silver, gold & gold with oakleaves) for each of those 3 years.

In 1944, in addition to the areas listed above, the Ost & Süd Tirol held Kreisschießens in 7 areas, Lienz, Bozen, Brixen, Schlanders, Salurn, Meran & Bruneck (Lienz had also held a Kreisschießen in the previous year, 1943, but did not issue their own badge).

I have known for many years that Orts held their own shoots as well. However it has only been in recent weeks that I discovered that at least one Ort issued it's own badge, in 1944, so there could be more Ortsschießen badges out there.

From 1938 - 1940 things were not so well organised & various areas held shoots. These were primarily in the form of Kreisappell, examples for Imst, Schwaz & Landeck are known to exist for 1939 & 1940. Examples of a Schlußshießen badge for Jenbach from 1938 can also be found but these are very rare.

As to the lapels you have posted, again we have discussed them, but for the benefit of others reading the thread. These are also fine originals, condition wise they look to be mint, but I suspect that the bright lighting is helping with that.

Cheers
Don

[soldon]

So, quite a lot of different shooting medals are out there - thanks for the information, I'd better start looking - Cheers for everything - Best Wishes

[Don Scowen]

So, quite a lot of different shooting medals are out there - thanks for the information, I'd better start looking - Cheers for everything - Best Wishes

Indeed. Just doing the numbers quickly in my head I think that you are looking at 208 different pieces just from the 1941 - 1944 Kreisschießens. That's without the various designs & grades from 1938 - 1940, the Opferschießens held in the 3 years 1940 - 1943, lapel badges & of course the Landesschießens...

You could also be interested in the Kreisschießens held in Kärnten, 3 areas held them, Spittal a/d Drau, Ferlach & Völkermarkt. And finally the Gauschießens from Salzburg in 1943 - 1944.....

I warn you, it can become addictive

Cheers
Don

[soldon]

Yes, I think my future may lie in taking a collecting short cut and visiting as many Austrian Military Fairs as I can. From what I know, they would be a more likely source of turning up the more rarer pieces - Austrian collectors being some what more active in this field of collecting. Strangely, I can't remember ever hearing of Austrian Military Fairs perhaps our Austrian members may know more ?

[soldon]

Came across this presentation case with four Tyrolean Meister shooting badges, very similar to Don's shown in post No.5 - 3year Gaumeisterschütze is slightly different. All the backs are numbered 1942 =280, 1943 = 156, 1944 = 208, 3 year = 521. Reading through the thread (post 17) Don has a list of badge recipients, I wonder if he would mind looking up who the first owner was and where he got them. The dealer who has this set, claims they were given to participants of the shooting championships and when they had attended all three year consecutive competitions, they went forward to the area shooting championships. Which is a little at odds to what I understood after reading through the thread, that only winners were given these badge sets in a case. Anyone which version is right ?

[Don Scowen]

A lovely set you have found there

Can you double check the numbers on the 1943 & 1944 badges please, are you sure that they are 156 & 208 & not 158 & 288....

If they are 158 & 288 then you have the complete group awarded to Eugen Wurm from Memmingen.

All of these badges are from the annual shoot held in Innsbruck (Landesschießen). The shooter was awarded the 3 year Gaumeister once he had received the Meisterschütze badge 3 times (ie 3 different years).

The Landesschießen was the Gau championships. Individual Kreis held their own shoots, some of their badges can be seen in other posts here.

Cheers
Don