Need help with 25 year NSDAP medal

[Stan]

25 Yr NSDAP Cross

Close up reverse (never noticed those hair-line cracks before!)

Stan

[Terry OToole]

Stan , many thanks i have a social elfare medal and will transfer swords to that , cheers Terry

[Jokka]

Stan, check the 3 first letters in "fuhrer" on your medal.

[CurtD]

Stan, I'm afraid yours may be a repro. On the reverse, see how the rays on the bottom are on top of the outer rim? That's one sign of a fake.

[James Clark]

Stan , many thanks i have a social elfare medal and will transfer swords to that , cheers Terry

Please don't. The addition of swords to the Social Welfare medal was a very, very rare award and making up the combination out of parts like this doesn't do anyone any favours.

[Jokka]

Stan, I'm afraid yours may be a repro. On the reverse, see how the rays on the bottom are on top of the outer rim? That's one sign of a fake.

Please explain, what is the rays and where's the outer rim ?

[Stan]

25 Yr NSDAP Cross

Curt/ Jokka,

Just read these recent posts in which you are both doubting the authenticity of my Cross. Well you may both be right but I very much doubt it.

Here are my reasons.

1. My cross was owned by Col. C.M. Dodkins who died in 1974. Collectors who have been around a long time will know what pre-1974 fakes looked like. They were very heavy, very white enamels and were not made of tomack. My cross is very slim, has opaque white enamel with plenty of black speckles, and is fire-gilded tomack (verdigris evident behind eagle/ wreath).

2. Adrian Forman shows my actual cross in vols. 2 & 3 of his book "Forman's Guide to Third Reich German Awards and their values".

3. Chris Ailsby "Warlord" shows my actual cross on p.136 of his book "World War 2 German Medals and Political Awards".

4. Bill Shea has an identical Cross with flawed ribbon on his Ruptured Duck website (item # M-211).

I realise that all the above is not conclusive evidence but many experts (Forman, Ailsby and Shea) seem to like it and so do I - it has the right colour and feel. Now that doubts have been expressed I will send it off to Niemann for his opinion. In the meantime I am very happy with it!

Stan

[Jokka]

Curt/ Jokka,

Just read these recent posts in which you are both doubting the authenticity of my Cross. Well you may both be right but I very much doubt it.

I have noticed that "Ruptured Duck" has two different crosses where one has your lettering and the other has not ("fuh" in fuhrer)

All genuine crosses that I have seen referered to has one type of letters (except the one at Ruptured Duck) .

Maybe both are genuine, but I think it's strange as they rare and probably few made. I have seen several fakes with yours type of lettering in the word "fuh".

I'm no expert, but I'll just want you to know. It might be good.

[CurtD]

This is the section I was conerned about. After blowing it up, I see that it is probably just a reflection.

You should see a complete EK rim with the "rays" between them (i.e. the rays should not cross over onto the EK rim).

That is why you can't really tell 100% with only pictures. And why Detlev must have it in hand to make a determination.

[CurtD]

Here is the one from Shea's site. This is the front because he does not have a large picture of the reverse. But, it shows what I am talking about. But, the one one Shea's site has some other concerns. Such as the sloppy lettering on the back and the highly reflective enamel.

[sjl]

Stan, I'm afraid yours may be a repro. On the reverse, see how the rays on the bottom are on top of the outer rim? That's one sign of a fake.

I think the mistake is Curt is seeing a shadow / flash on the lower arms, instead of the rays overlapping the edges of the arms of the cross. There are some questionable 15 year crosses where the last rays between the arms of the cross actually overlap the edge of the arms. I don't see that here.

[CurtD]

2. Adrian Forman shows my actual cross in vols. 2 & 3 of his book "Forman's Guide to Third Reich German Awards and their values".

3. Chris Ailsby "Warlord" shows my actual cross on p.136 of his book "World War 2 German Medals and Political Awards".

4. Bill Shea has an identical Cross with flawed ribbon on his Ruptured Duck website (item # M-211).

As a side note, I have never found comparing medals to life-sized (or even smaller than life-sized) B&W pictures all that helpful.

There are tons of fake EK's and RK's that look just like those in these books as well. The details are far too small to determine from the pictures in these books.

And as much as I respect Detlev, the 8 year SS award in his latest book is a well-known fake.

And your cross is quite a bit different from the one on Shea's site. Actually, your cross looks better (for the reasons I mentioned above).

[Brian S]

Curt/ Jokka,

Just read these recent posts in which you are both doubting the authenticity of my Cross. Well you may both be right but I very much doubt it.

Here are my reasons.

1. My cross was owned by Col. C.M. Dodkins who died in 1974. Collectors who have been around a long time will know what pre-1974 fakes looked like. They were very heavy, very white enamels and were not made of tomack. My cross is very slim, has opaque white enamel with plenty of black speckles, and is fire-gilded tomack (verdigris evident behind eagle/ wreath).

2. Adrian Forman shows my actual cross in vols. 2 & 3 of his book "Forman's Guide to Third Reich German Awards and their values".

3. Chris Ailsby "Warlord" shows my actual cross on p.136 of his book "World War 2 German Medals and Political Awards".

4. Bill Shea has an identical Cross with flawed ribbon on his Ruptured Duck website (item # M-211).

I realise that all the above is not conclusive evidence but many experts (Forman, Ailsby and Shea) seem to like it and so do I - it has the right colour and feel. Now that doubts have been expressed I will send it off to Niemann for his opinion. In the meantime I am very happy with it!

Stan

Stan, which is why your piece is SO important to bring forward as the gold standard in NSDAP 25 year crosses.

I'm afraid probably most if not all of the people who responded to you don't have a clue hwo Dodkins was and what his contribution was to the hobby or how improbable he would have a fake of this quality in his collection. At the time of his death the Souval fake was as good as it got and yours is no Souval.

Thank you for sharing. Regardless of what anybody thinks they know is the gold standard, Stan has just presented it to you I believe by provenance of Dodkins. I'm proud to own his 1968 edition of Orders, Decorations, Medals and Badges of the Third Reich. You want to see genuine badges, this is the book of pre-dated beautiful fakes. Irrespective of Souval, nobody made anything of quality like your cross.

Did you get any other pieces from this estate? Do you have documentation for the cross or other articles? Thanks Stan.

Sure looks like the same cross on page 70 of their book!

[Darrell]

Brian,

Maybe Tommy 2 Face is writing about this in his new book .... then again, I don't think he knows enough about anything to fill an introduction

[Brian S]

He just has to buy one and become an instant expert.


Stan, is that a flaw on the left wing?