101st Airborne Vet bringback from Goring's dining car in Berchtesgaden

[Bob Hritz]

Has anyone ever compiled a list of numbers from DR dining inplements? I would be interested in knowing the range of known numbers.

Bob Hritz

[Br. James]

My pleasure, Joe, and when I get 'round to really reading this book, I'll keep your question in mind.

Regarding the carriage numbers, here is what Jim Yannes tells us in "The Encyclopedia of Third Reich Tableware," which he published in 2013: "The Reichsbahn used special numbers to identify the unique wagons constructed for Hitler and Göring and a few others. The basic number system was to use a 10XXX series, as the master sequence. All of Hitler's wagons were specially constructed so they all were in the 10XXX series numbering while on Göring's train only six wagons were of special construction and therefore listed with the distinctive 10XXX. This facilitated the marking of wagon-specific cutlery/porcelain/napkins/service pieces etc. using the last three numbers of the wagon so as to better keep track of the tableware." He then gives the following breakdown of tableware intended for use on specific train cars (wagons):
Hitler's Dining: 10242, 10244 & 10245
VIP: 10231 & 10232
Göring's Family Wagon: 10205
Dining: 10241 & 10243
VIP: 10233 & 10234
Ribbentrop's Dining: 10213
Otto Dietrich's private car: 10251

I don't believe any of the "Sonderzug" utensils or table services were actually stamped with the full five-digit carriage number; they all bore the abbreviated number of the last three digits of the relevant carriage for which they were made.

Also, Jim Yannes doesn't actually show us any printed or published "documentation" which supports his statements, though I know that he has spent decades specializing in researching this unique segment of our hobby and has traveled throughout Germany numerous times with his German-speaking wife in search of pieces of tableware and the stories behind them.

As always, I hope this is helpful to you.

Br. James

[JoeW]

Thank you Br. James for the synopsis of his points. I would hope that he provided some documentation for this theory. Without evidence that no other DR tableware was marked, it appears a theory was created to explain the appearance of the tableware that happen to have been marked with the last three digits of those trains.

[Bob Hritz]

Thank you, Br. James. This is very helpful.

Bob Hritz

[Br. James]

My pleasure, friends. And I do understand your hesitancy to accept any theory without hard facts such as paper documentation of such statements. We all come from a time when such documentation was always absent, which provided the initiative for collectors and researchers like Roger Bender, Jack Angolia, Littlejohn & Dodkins and a number of other early authors back in the 1960s, '70s and '80s to write books which attempted to provide answers to some of our undocumented questions. I lived through those early days and can tell you that I was always delighted to see any new 'scholarship' published that I could add to my library...though today, in hindsight, we also realize that some of the points which were presented as "facts" were really assumptions -- though assumptions on the part of students and collectors that had handled these artifacts regularly for many years and who began to see patterns which could speak to a history which was, at least at that time, undocumentable. We still live with those opinions from long ago -- which is why we still have no hard evidence on such subjects as how much AH silver tableware was actually ordered by Bormann and produced by the Bruckmann and Wellner firms, or the details on the history of Deschler's involvement with producing the GPB as well as whether jeweler and designer Josef Fuess actually produced his own version of the small GPB -- and why -- or whether the firm of Wilhelm Deumer actually produced the small badge bearing Fuess' design and name...and MANY other assumptions which we have found NO documentation on as yet...!! And so the search goes on!

Cheers, friends,

Br. James

[JoeW]

Yes Br. James, our hobby is filled with unanswered mysteries of who made what and in what quantities. Although regarding the Fuess question, we do know for a fact that Fuess provided gold party badges at least on order of Hitler's housekeeper according to that letter I provided in a thread a few years ago.

But the question I asked has to do with who used the silver pieces, not who produced them and in what quantity. And as the value of these pieces marked with the three digits 241, 243 and so forth hinges entirely on what appears to be a theory, unless the Yannes book provides documentation associating the markings only with the Sonderzug of the party leaders, this is an entirely different question.

[Br. James]

Hey Joe,

I do seem to recall seeing a copy of a letter (from Frau Winter??) ordering additional GPBs, presumably for Hitler to have as spares at his various residences -- and ordering these from Josef Fuess, that would be the small badge, and we almost never see photos of Hitler wearing that sized GPB, do we! He regularly wore the large Deschler GPB with his various jackets, being some form of a uniform. I believe he also wore a special golden eagle and swastika as a necktie stickpin with both uniforms and civilian attire, and I understand that this small stickpin was accorded the position of representing his position as President of the Reich. (I don't now recall where I read that...??)

It would probably be helpful here if Brent Smith or Bill Shea or one of the other major dealers in AH and TR cutlery would add an opinion as to their experiences with DR Sonderzug tableware and it's provenance. As I mentioned previously, Jim Yannes writes about these implements in a direct way, as if it was already established that these numbered pieces were specifically from one of the railroad carriages of Hitler, Göring or one of the other NSDAP bigwigs.

Br. James

[Berghof]

Here's my 2 cents worth of my understanding of the dining car assignments for Hitler & Goring. Don't know if this helps any or is just restating what others have already said.

# 10225 sleeping car - Hitlers Train
# 10241 primary dining car - Göring’s Train
# 10242 primary dining car - Hitler’s Train
# 10243 salon car/back up dining car - Göring’s Train
# 10244 salon car/back up dining car - Hitler’s Train
# 10251 salon car for press chief Dr. Otto Dietrich - Hitler's Train

Dining cars ( Wagennummer 10241-10245 Bln, Salonspeisewagen Sal R 4U-37) among the thirteen cars made in 1937 there were two restaurant cars built by Gebrüder Credé in Kassel-Niederzwehren (10242 Bln, 10244 Bln) and two built by Wegmann & Co., Kassel (10241Bln, 10243 Bln). They were built with the following configuration: kitchen, counters and two dining rooms. Each car was furnished with specific/assigned silverware. Blinds were used in the windows and the dining rooms were paneled with wood, lamps, movable tables and chairs. The separation wall between the dining rooms could be removed for a wider space. After delivery, the first cars were assigned to Hitler and Goering.

Some additional tidbits....I remember reading some information Bill Shea had on his website a few years back. It goes something like this...

Hitler’s Train (Führersonderzug- leader’s special train) was originally named Amerika. In September of 1939 it was renamed Einheit III. In 1943 the name was changed to Brandenburg and in March of 1945, it received its last (German) name which was Brandenburg I. After the war it was used by Dwight Eisenhower. Göring had two trains (Sonderzug- special train) they were called Asian I and II. The 101st airborne guys claimed there were trains hidden in the tunnels at the Berchtesgaden Railway Station. They climbed on board and helped themselves to wine, food, silverware, uniforms, swords, etc.. Nobody remembered which specific trains these were. Bill sited the some of the same railcar assignments that I wrote above and even he said his sources were from several books/internet sources.

Would it be a good idea to get some folks involved to put together a pinned a post with the train assignments after we've validated?? This question comes up frequently.

As far as tying the silverware to specific trains, it seems that the general consensus among collectors is that the railcar numbers were stamped on the silverware...with no documented proof. I think it would be a hell of a coincidence if that wasn't the case....but still no concrete evidence.

-Mike

[JoeW]

Hey Mike

I think the numbering and use of the cars is well known. I don't think anyone is questioning the train assignments.

But you write "As far as tying the silverware to specific trains, it seems that the general consensus among collectors is that the railcar numbers were stamped on the silverware...with no documented proof. I think it would be a hell of a coincidence if that wasn't the case....but still no concrete evidence."

How can there be a consensus about the numbering on the tableware if the rail car numbers are five digits and the tableware have three digit. I don't know what coincidence you are referring to , but the rail car numbers of those special trains are not stamped on the tableware. That is, unless you believe that no other trains in the entire Deutsche Reichsbahn system used tableware with any type of numbering to specific cars. Or perhaps Yannes does have the documentation supporting the odd numbering system used.

Do any collectors out there own any DR table ware without numbers? My gosh, one would think some other pieces made it back with sticky fingered vets. Or is the only DR table ware known marked with the 241, 243 numbers and so on. If that's the case, then the logical explanation to me is that someone came across these three digit numbered pieces years ago and learning that the only numbers found happened to be the last three of certain cars, thought "Hey, what a great way to sell table ware." Heck, perhaps the numbers are only product style numbers or something like that.

I guess I am in a distinct minority. But with all the documentation, someone must have info that correlates the markings to only those cars other than the explanation "Hey, at least the last three digits are the same."

[Berghof]

How can there be a consensus about the numbering on the tableware if the rail car numbers are five digits and the tableware have three digit. I don't know what coincidence you are referring to , but the rail car numbers of those special trains are not stamped on the tableware.

Joe,

It is consensus. Speak to anyone that has owned/handled many of these pieces. Me/Brent/Shea/Wittmann. How do you explain this? Same number 244 on both these pieces. Two different styles, same number. I wouldn't expect to see this type of flatware on all DR railcars.

[Berghof]

Spoon

[Berghof]

If we don't have documentation spelling it out for us, there's nothing left other than deductive reasoning. The fork I presented, marked 244, is the same exact style as the one marked 243 at the beginning of the thread. No need to put the 10 in front of every stamped number...all you need is the last 3 digits to distinguish which rail car it should be associated with.

[JoeW]

Berghof. Why wouldn't you expect to see this type of flatware on other DR railcars. I do not profess any knowledge of this. Is there evidence of what kind of flatware the other DR railcars used or if it was numbered? If not, I am believe you and the others are taking a great leap of faith on these pieces.

I only know that the car numbers are five digits and these pieces are numbered three digits. You may feel comfortable if believing the three digits are the same as the five digit number. I have other interest other than my curiosity of evidence.

Your deductive argument goes like this? Goring's DR dining car is numbered 10241, a DR spoon is found numbered 241, therefore the spoon numbered 241 was used in dining car 10241. Okay....... Do we know if any other dining cars in the DR system carried a number ending in 241?

[Br. James]

Your point is well taken, Joe, and I cannot find an answer! There certainly must have been tableware created for dining car service on the many trains that comprised the Deutsche Reichsbahn rolling stock, but I can find no examples of what that tableware looked like. Jim Yannes does provide an example of a teaspoon bearing the design of a mobile swastika with a bird's wing attached to one arm of the swastika; of this design, Yannes states that it is "the modified DR emblem where the original flanged wheel has been replaced by a mobile swastika which became mandatory in 1933." From this statement it could be presumed that this design was the one used on all DR trains from 1933 -- 1945, but if that was the case, surely we would have seen many more examples of this winged design amid vets' bring-backs and within many NSDAP/TR collections ever since the late 1940s -- but we haven't seen that, have we? So we are left to wonder what indeed were all the passengers on the German Railway System provided to eat with when they boarded their coaches anywhere in Nazi Germany?

Br. James

[JoeW]

Your point is well taken, Joe, and I cannot find an answer!...................So we are left to wonder what indeed were all the passengers on the German Railway System provided to eat with when they boarded their coaches anywhere in Nazi Germany?
Br. James

It's a mystery for the ages Br. James. Unless the numbers on the pieces that have shown up are just standard pattern numbers for tableware used on all the trains. With so much at stake, I am sure someone has the proper documentation in their files either here in the US or in Germany.

For what it's worth, I would have thought that Göring would have equipped his care with silver pieces marked by Zeitner. I sure he had the funds to provide for such a service for his trains that he controlled. Zeitner made common silver pieces. I have a Göring bon-bon Schale marked with the Zeitner stamp.