101st Airborne Vet bringback from Goring's dining car in Berchtesgaden

[Knight_ridergta]

In 2015 I had to sell my entire collection of WWII stuff and just about all my AH related stuff sadly.

I just lined up this piece from Bill Shea and a happy to kick of rebuilding with this dinner fork from Goring's dining car, brought back by a member of the 101st Airborne in the 506th.

Hope you enjoy!

[Knight_ridergta]

The letter from the vet.

[Berghof]

Nice fork Knight_ridergta. Congrats! It's always nice to have the provenance.

I just recently obtained a nice lot of AH flatware from the Brown House and Berghof with provenance.

http://www.ww2treasures.com/recent-p...er-silverware/

-Mike

[CPB]

In 2015 I had to sell my entire collection of WWII stuff and just about all my AH related stuff sadly.

I just lined up this piece from Bill Shea and a happy to kick of rebuilding with this dinner fork from Goring's dining car, brought back by a member of the 101st Airborne in the 506th.

Hope you enjoy!

Great piece, especially with the veteran provenance. Congratulations—and welcome back

[Br. James]

Hi Knight, and welcome back 'in the game!' So sorry to hear that you had to release your treasured collection two years ago, and I hope that whatever caused the need to do so has now been rectified!

The piece you show is indeed from Göring's private train -- a piece in silver-plate probably from the staff dining service provided by the Reichsbahn -- and it was made by the renowned Bruckmann firm.

I'm sure you would enjoy Jim Yannes' new book; the title is a give-away as to its content: "The Special Trains of Hitler, Göring et al," published Outskirts Press in 2015..."a date that will live in infamy" for you!

Hi Mike -- your set of AH silverware is a fabulous find! Congrats!

Br. James

[JoeW]

Hmm. The piece is numbered 243. I thought this piece would belong to Goering inasmuch as one of his cars was numbered 10243. But of course it is AH. So the 243 is the product number.

[Br. James]

Hi Joe,

What is it about this fork that gives you the impression that "it is AH?" As you say, DR #(10)243 was one of the dining carriages in Göring's train.

Cheers,

Br. James

[JoeW]

Well Br. James, perhaps it was because I read the vet "provenance" provided with the table service piece? The image posted is so poor that all I could make out was the eagle. And of course a different "inventory" number. So I ignored the title to the thread. The vet wrote it was Hitler's train. But what the heck did those vets know, right. Hitler's train, Goring's train, the 5:30pm special from Berlin? They all looked alike.
So the bit of provenance doesn't go with the item and is totally useless?

I wrote about this on another thread and I still can't seem to find an answer to my question about all the other DR cars the car numbers of which ended in 241 or 205 and now 243. How is one to distinguish between those inventory numbers of those other cars which would be identical to the numbers Goering cars? Or are we to believe that those other cars ending in the numbers specifically associated with Goering were not numbered? Nor were any other table service pieces in the DR inventory numbered?

That article linked in another thread about the history of Goring's train is very interesting. But again, I can't seem to find any reference to pieces of tableware in those cars being marked with last three digits of the car number. And now we have three different cars with table service pieces?

[Br. James]

Thanks, Joe, and you're thinking is certainly in line with mine: when reading the provenance of many a GI, I immediately understand that that person would have no idea what he was really looking at, and so all I can accept from such statements is that that person found the item(s) described (and usually shown) under such circumstances. "Hitler's train? Göring's train? Himmler's or Ribbentrop's train??" Who knew?! The same goes for identifying the Kehlstein Haus or the Mooslahnerkopf as "The Eagle's Nest" or as "Hitler's house/headquarters in Berchtesgaden!" Such details were usually unknown to the rank-and-file soldier at the front, so I tend to ignore such details when I read them in notes of provenance.

Sorry that you can't make out the "DR" on the fork in question; it is fairly clear on my screen. And as to the various three-digit numbers on the reverse of the tableware found in the train carriages of these high-ranking Nazis -- and there were a number of various numbers -- I'm sure that Jim Yannes' new book, "The Special Trains of Hitler, Göring et al," published by Outskirts Press in 2015 -- would be quite a useful addition to your library.

Cheers, my friend,

Br. James

[JoeW]

Ah ha! There it is. I think I see a D and an R. This is a crop of the photo I have been looking at. I tried an enlargement but the imag deteriorated because of the small file size.



Br. James, thank you for the suggestion, but my library has hit its limit I think and with a limoted interest in the trains, I will pass. Unless he discusses the security escort detachments accompanying these Nazi leaders. I am always looking for information on Himmler's escort police battalion. But I digress.

Please tell me if Yannes provides documentation of the procedure of marking the table service in the trains of high ranking Nazi officials and how the marking differed from normal DR table service.

[Knight_ridergta]

Sorry fellas! I saved the pictures from Bill's site for the layaway on that piece.

As far as the numbering, Yannes is worth checking out!

[Br. James]

Thanks, Joe. I confess that I obtained a copy of Jim Yannes' book only a few weeks ago and have not had the opportunity to carefully read through it's 243 pages -- mostly text but with a good number of photos of tableware, dishes and glassware, together with schematics of the different special carriages built for the Nazi hierarchy. Like you, trains have never been a particular focus for my own collecting and I admit that I don't have one single piece of DR cutlery in my collections, but Yannes' studies of tableware have been of special interest ever since he began publishing his various books on the subject, beginning with his "Collectible Spoons of the 3rd Reich," published in 2009. His "The Special Trains..." is now his fifth book on these general but related subjects.

Regarding "...how the marking differed from normal DR table service," that appears to have been accomplished by the silver content and the hallmarks of the various pieces used in the different carriages on the DR line. For example, there appear to exist two sets of tableware made for Hitler's Göring's, Himmler's and Ribbentrop's train carriages: the tableware used in the personal cars of the leaders themselves was made of .800 solid silver content bearing the traditional Bruckmann hallmarks, while the tableware made for the supporting personnel carriages was silver-plated, bearing the Bruckmann locomotive logo and the plate indicator of "90." Each piece of both the solid silverware and the plated services were numbered with the designated carriage number in which they were intended to be used.

Hope this is helpful, my friend,

Br. James

[JoeW]

Thank you Br. James for providing some information from his work on the trains. Please let me know if he provides any information on the security detachment accompanying Himmler and if the unit rode on the train also.

As for the explanation of the property numbers, I still sense a bit of reasoning here that is missing something. The pieces are from the Goring train because they are numbered 241, 243 or so. Yet Goring's train cars have five digit numbers. So either all other DR train cars had table service with the full car numbers stamped or they had no numbers. Right? It had to be either of those scenarios, or the Goring tableware carried three digit numbers that could have been used on any other train cars. Is this just a theory of Yannes, or does he provide some documentation? Whether it's sterling or plated is irrelevant if the numbering system in the DR cars can't be explained with some documentation.

[tgn]

I have an ivory lamp from Goering's rail car.

[CPB]

I have an ivory lamp from Goering's rail car.

I for one would like to see that...