H. Himmler gift.....

[Nordmark]

You need to have iron clad provenance when you buy such a piece. I also have one of those cups around, just tell me what you want to have inscribed and I´ll have it done...

99,9% of these pieces are fakes.

[jimt]

surprise, surprise

I would be surprised if the last shown cup is real.

Here is a picture of HH giving a Birthday present to lammers , same pattern cup.
In my collection i have a similiar cup to this second picture, with a three line dedication from Himmler to Wolff on his Birthday , it was brought back by a CIC NCO who took it from Wolff's home so my provenance is very good ( also have the CIC's ID card ) getting back to the silver cup in the original picture you can see the general layout of the engraving which matches my example, I cannot photograph it as the camera is broken .

[Craig Gottlieb]

Outstanding photo, Jim.

[JoeW]

I would be surprised if the last shown cup is real.

Wouldn't you know it. I spend some time on bookkeeping at the office today and don't check in on the WAF and look what happens. Thorsten you wouldn't know a real Patentgeschenk cup if it bit you in the a ss.

Thank for you kind efforts to discredit my silver cup. I only wonder why you didn't make such a shabby attempt at guilt by association in the other link I posted. You certainly seem to be acquainted with the questionable items floated on auctions. Are the ones that Thies auctioned on which you cast aspersions, that you described as "...supposedly given as a personal gift of Himmler due to the marriage of an SS-Gruppenführer or SS-Obergruppenführer..", the same that you mention in the discussion on the link I provided above? I didn't see that particular Thies auction. What did they go for?

I don't understand your attitude Thorsten. I thought we were such good friends when we emailed back and forth after you learned of my Allach desk set. I am still waiting for that Wewelsburg poster you promised. I know I didn't send you any money for it like that chap on the GD.com forum. Is he still waiting too. How is that girlfriend of yours from the states? Does she still ride? But enough of this idle chatter of friends. Oops. Excuse my digression into personal chatter Mr. Moderator. Mea culpa.

My Patnentgeschenk came from the same place as the Allach desk set, a few medals and things, silver pieces and Allach. The provenance is as good as Toncar's, if not better.

[Thorsten B.]

And I thought we are here to share and discuss, different opinions included - silly me.

And thank you for your respectful answer.

[Michael Fay]

And I thought we are here to share and discuss, different opinions included - silly me.

Not everyone's opinion is of value.

[Thorsten B.]

Spot on, Michael.

And Jim,

Thank you for the interesting picture!

[JoeW]

I acknowledged your opinion of my cup Thorsten, and responded to it with facts. Please enlighten us by providing us with information about the typical shape of such silver gift cups. And would you consider Jim's cup also suspect, as it is the same shape as my Patentgeschenk cup? And please expand on your opinion that the signatures are "snobbish"? What exactly do you mean?

Of course WAF encourages sharing and discussing different opinions. Please discuss your remarks about the similarity of shape of my cup and Jim's cup with those from the Thies auction which you stated were similar in shape and thus suspect.

[Thorsten B.]

What I mean with snobby signature is the eye-catching "Himmler"-signature which is unusual and not of the reserved style I would expect from such a piece.

The couple of silver cups (supposedly SS-wedding cups) auctioned by Thies was about five years ago - I do not have the auction catalogue at hand right now but it was already some time ago and not recently - and they were supposedly made by Gahr and that supported by faked but professionally made SS stamps.

The shared picture of Jim indicates to me that there was obviously a development in regards to the used shape of any given SS silver cups, given as presents on different occasions - part of the Patengeschenk on birth of a child, birthday present, wedding present and perhaps award.

Seems to me that two different variations in regards to shape were presented - the one visable in Jim´s shared picture and the other different one in the shape as the cup which started this thread.

[JoeW]

The Himmler signature that you feel is "snobby" and "eye-catching" is merely his facsimile signature that is found on other presentation pieces such as TK rings and some presentation firearms, only enlarged to fit better in proportion to the cups.

You have explained your reservations about the authenticity of the cups sold on Thies' auction because of what you determined to have been fake SS stamps and alleged Gahr manufacture. But the two cups shown here show only the legally necessary silver stamps and in one case a manufacturer stamp. No SS stamps are mentioned. How can you have associated these with the cups sold on Thies that you describe as fakes.

You specifically wrote that you doubted whether the last cup shown (my cup) was real. And Jim followed with his photo commenting that the shape is identical to mine and the inscription design appears identical to the first cup shown on this thread. Now you indicate that it appears two different variations were presented: the one visible in Toncar's post that is identical to mine and the other shown in the first frames of this thread.

So you have changed your mind regarding mine, or does it continue to fail to pass your litmus test of authenticity? And if it does, please explain your opinion.

[Thorsten B.]

"The Himmler signature that you feel is "snobby" and "eye-catching" is merely his facsimile signature that is found on other presentation pieces such as TK rings and some presentation firearms, only enlarged to fit better in proportion to the cups."

Of course we can find that on other presentation pieces - but especially on SS cultural pieces (the Walthers are not really a part of that category) the Himmler signature is just not visable.

Allach Kinderfriesleuchter, Allach Hochzeitsbecher, Gahr jewelry and also the sword and dagger - the signature appears to be well put.

Yes, you can see them on the blades - but from outside? No.

Also the dedication with signature is never on but in presented books and other gifts of that kind.

These cups are really the exception.

[Michael Fay]

The Himmler signature that you feel is "snobby" and "eye-catching" is merely his facsimile signature that is found on other presentation pieces such as TK rings and some presentation firearms, only enlarged to fit better in proportion to the cups.

You have explained your reservations about the authenticity of the cups sold on Thies' auction because of what you determined to have been fake SS stamps and alleged Gahr manufacture. But the two cups shown here show only the legally necessary silver stamps and in one case a manufacturer stamp. No SS stamps are mentioned. How can you have associated these with the cups sold on Thies that you describe as fakes.

You specifically wrote that you doubted whether the last cup shown (my cup) was real. And Jim followed with his photo commenting that the shape is identical to mine and the inscription design appears identical to the first cup shown on this thread. Now you indicate that it appears two different variations were presented: the one visible in Toncar's post that is identical to mine and the other shown in the first frames of this thread.

So you have changed your mind regarding mine, or does it continue to fail to pass your litmus test of authenticity? And if it does, please explain your opinion.

Joe,
Well done tracking this slippery character as he chameleon like changes his arguements whilst simultaneously trying to obscure his shifted opinions and tenous evidence.
-Michael

[Thorsten B.]

As always a balanced and worthful contribution.

You are always there when I´m in need which makes me feel good - thank you!

[jimt]

cup

why would you be surprised???

transvision, could you please email me, thanks
jim toncar

[JoeW]

Thorsten, I wrote above about similar signatures found on "..other presentation pieces such as TK rings and some presentation firearms..", not cultural pieces. The subject of the discussion is the silver cups with the Himmler signature which you describe as "snobby" and "eye-catching". You wrote above that you ".. have yet to see any of Himmers (sic) personal gifts bearing that kind of snobbish signature of him." Now you write that "..we can find that (Himmler's snobbish signature?) on other presentation pieces. So you are agreeing that these silver cups have authentic Himmler signatures? Or what?

And I would like you to either provide substance to your written public opinion above that my presentation cup is not original or withdraw your statement. I am not adverse to a contrary opinion about the authenticity of my Himmler presentation silver cup, but I believe the spirit of this forum requires substantiation of such a claim. You originally tried to associate my cup with those on the Thies auction which you claimed were marked with fake SS stamps, but apparently have withdrawn that evidence as neither none of the three cups on this thread have fake SS marks.