Himmler's School Booklet

[Thorsten B.]

I think the message is as always:

Buy the item, not the story.

So if anybody out there is willing to spend 3K for this historical piece (Nr. 60) then he can buy it - yes, he can.

If he is not willing to do that deal then he can switch and finally spend the 3K for example for an SS Dagger by Klaas (Nr. 4823) - yes, he can.

It´s a free country.

[Dietrich Maerz]

You mean a Gymnasium, I guess.

Well, your lordship, you guessed right! I sincerely apologize for the typo but I can see that you gracefully jumped on it, not leaving out any possibility to divert from the real issue. If it serves your purpose, I am also freely admitting that I might do more typos in the future and I do herewith announce if you find them you can keep them as a personal gift from me to you!

Allow me also to kindly answer to your last post. This is not about a story. This is about a booklet named to "Himmler Heinrich" who was 16 in the 6th grade on the Gymnasium (I spelled it right!) and did high level algebra. Have you any answer to that? There is no story attached to that, just a little bit of a mystery.

And to Nordwind I can also state with utmost confidence: I know what a Gymnasium is, believe me. I attended one long enough.

[PAUL.H]

Aim small - miss small.

your contribution to the debate has been invaluable thus far !

[Nordmark]

I know what a Gymnasium is, believe me. I attended one long enough.

Your English teacher sucked big time then...

[Thorsten B.]

Judging the piece in question by it´s intern number "60" it is my conclusion that Craig must have obtained it really a looooooong time ago.

From what I am aware of he learned German language not so long ago, though.

So somebody must have fooled him by selling him this booklet.

He obviously bought it quickly for what it was described to him (a personal piece of Himmler - who wouldn´t?) and put it proudly into stock and on his website.

And nobody ever realized that something might be fishy with it - including Craig and including anybody else.

[PAUL.H]

its a little strange , normally when an opinion is asked on the forum over a signature many opinions are given . for some reason that i cant fathom nobody seems to have any opinion on the validity of the example in question .
it may be a long shot , but perhaps one of our german members may work within the german education system and may be in a position to shed some light on the issue of the age of pupils in 6th class in 1916 ???
regards .....pavel

[Thorsten B.]

In 6th class on the Gymnasium I was twelve (12) years old.

[PAUL.H]

And nobody ever realized that something might be fishy with it - including Craig and including anybody else.[/QUOTE]

do you really put any credence to the above ouote ?
its only purpose is comic relief ......
regards
pavel

[dave peifer]

i am with dietrich here,i have been following this thread waiting to find out if the "6.kla"on the cover of the book could have a meaning other than 6th grade.for my own interest only.........hope somebody chimes in.....dave

[Dietrich Maerz]

Your English teacher sucked big time then...

That is true. But people with intelligence (an there are some) can still learn without the guidance of others. Well, some can't . And that are normally the ones who need to elevate themselves above others with snipe and pseudo-clever comments because they have nothing else to show or contribute. Attendees excluded, of course!

And nobody ever realized that something might be fishy with it - including Craig and including anybody else.

And now we can agree that something is fishy?

In 6th class on the Gymnasium I was twelve (12) years old.

That is I think the normal age and not 16. However, this Himmler was 16 and the algebra is clearly 10th grade with is correct for that age. And that is were the 'fishy' comes in ...

But here is my point. In "Crosses" and also in "Badges" we discuss things openly and direct. A fake is called a fake. No guild is assigned to the poster or owner or dealer. It is called a fake if one knows why it might be one and has an explanation!
I see now that this forum is not called "political" for nothing. It seems to me that one has to be "political correct" in describing what one means and dance around the topic by maybe using "don't buy the story", "spell Gymnasium correct!", "You had a bad English teacher", "You don't know what a Gynmasium is!" to finally come firstly to an excuse why the dealer has the item (and want $ 3000 for it ...) and then, only then, one might call it "fishy ..."

Wow, that is politically correct! Thanks for teaching me how it is done here!

I go back to were I belong and were we call a spade a spade. Have fun!

To use a nice stage direction: "Akteur lacht und geht nach rechts ab!"

Dietrich

[Thorsten B.]

Listen Irishman:

I have seen this booklet being listed since I saw Craig´s website the first time.

I actually never really paid attention whether the piece might be authentic or not just because I have SS cultural items on my radar and therefore not necessarily Himmler´s private belongings, especially not those from 1916.

Time for a beer, it´s weekend - Cheers!

[Nordmark]

And that are normally the ones who need to elevate themselves above others with snipe and pseudo-clever comments because they have nothing else to show or contribute. Attendees excluded, of course!

Not snipe and pseudo clever, just a little correction. But it seems that this sometimes hurts the giant, monstrous ego of others. Attendees excluded, of course!

[alexanderautogr]

Jeez, the guys in this hobby really go for blood!

Seems I've been called off my attack on imbeciles "Stump" and "Royster" to offer an opinion of Mr. Gottlieb's Himmler school book.

I should start off by warning all dealers, and even collectors, to never state flat out that an item is "fake" or even real. The foremost Beatles autograph expert in the world, and a close friend, pronounced a Beatles signed album as being a fake in an email. The email reached the seller, and my pal was sued for restraint of trade, etc. etc. etc. costing him $300,000 in legal fees. He eventually won a Pyrrhic victory...Please, always state your opinion as just that...an "opinion", not as fact. And opinions are cheap - everyone has one.

Getting back to the book. I am not a German schools expert, but if the "6th class" and dated page do not jibe historically with Himmler's age and school record, seems to me that that would be proof in itself as to the item's authenticity or lack thereof. Although I sold a JFK signed latter dated Nov. 26, 1963...it was signed days before BEFORE his murder On Nov. 22 and post-dated, not four years AFTER his murder. I discussed the class and date with a German employee and he couldn't make heads or tails of it either.

As someone quite experienced with autographs, I find it a little troubling that the forename and surname are written in two different forms of script. It also seems that a different pen was used for the signature and perhaps class as well, though that is not the kiss of death. Neither are the razored pages - greedy dealers and collectors sometimes chop apart manuscripts and sell pages individually, especially if they have signatures on them. And a few years ago, a number of Himmler's much earlier school texts were on the market.

As for the handwriting within, I have only a very few exemplars of Himmler's handwriting from such an early age, although it changed little throughout his life. I believe that the handwriting in Mr. Gottlieb book is far neater and more widely spaced than what I have personally seen. The numerals are quite close, but overall I have issues with it. For an example, see Chas. Hamilton's Leaders & Personalities of the Third Reich (Bender, 1996, out of print), p. 117.

Just as Mr. Gottlieb does not profess to be an expert in handwriting, I do not profess to be an expert in WWII firearms, etc., and I've learned that anyone who claims to be an expert at everything is usually...a fraud. I've made a boatload of mistakes in my career, and I'd be happy to tell the world about them.

What's most troubling (as mentioned in a post below) is why this comes to light now. Although I've met Mr. Gottlieb perhaps only two or three times, it seems to me that he's one of the favorite whipping boys in the public forums.

I cannot and will not opine upon whether that treatment is deserved - what I can say is that in going to the major shows and viewing thousands of item thereat and online, and in querying a multitude of disinterested parties about people in our trade, I have to believe his treatment is a bit heavy-handed. I'm sure all would agree that there are prominent dealers out there who would make John Dillinger look like a Cub Scout in comparison, yet those dealers remain untouched.

I honestly believe that if there were to be a little less back-biting and a little more cooperation between dealers and collectors joining together to fight against the proven crooks out there, everyone would profit. Constant infighting solves nothing.

I am in the process of planning a dealer-collector members' organization which will be EXTREMELY self-policing and will regularly vet the material of each of its members. Eventually it will have its own website, group advertising, and hopefully, conduct its own shows. For autograph dealers, the Professional Autograph Dealers Association (of which I was a founding member) fills that roll. Although I'm new to your niche of the collecting world, perhaps I can offer some fresh thinking.

All comments welcome.

[Thorsten B.]

Dietrich:

You don´t know me in person so you cannot comment - not even assume - to anything in that direction.

Furthermore I´d pay to see people pointing out and discussing fishy items by opening threads about them from EVERY dealer - we would be in need of plenty of threads then and Craig would surely be not on top of that.

[alexanderautogr]

BTW - GO GIANTS! 49'ERS SUCK! Sue me....