Gentlemen, I'm still a bit confused. Why are you seeking a deumer mark on these items, if you know that the originals were never marked? It is like looking for the little man who was not there. I request the proof that these were made by Souval postwar. Nobody is telling us that they have an original Souval catalog from the late 50s and early 60s, when these German Orders were supposedly made. Put it on the table guys, let's see your evidence please. Absent that, since I doubt if anyone has such an original catalog, there is still no explanation why Andre Husken would depict a repro of such an important Order in his catalog. This is his 3d edition and the 1st and 2d editions also have the same German Order 3d class depicted. Any explanation? As I have said, the Party always tried to spread the work around. Who out there can say that another maker(s) were not around. Robin L., tells us in his books that there are different versions, period made. It is more important in my opinion that the swas be at 12 & 6, and if it does not exactly mee the tie at the bottom of the wreath, nobody at the time cared. It is us the collector 65+ years after the event that looks at such minute details. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe Souval made these German Orders in 1959. Guys, let's have evidence and not urban legends. I invite cogent comments!
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[ATTACH]1339846[/ATTACH]Comment
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Souval was selling these pieces. The Deumer pieces are quite different from these. The Souval cross has a button on the reverse at the center ont which is Hitlers signature. Again Deumer were the only maker, they held the pattent to make them. This is one of the rarest of the Third Reich awards.Comment
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I have been lucky enough to examine a genuine one myself some years ago (the second class verson) And i must say the quality was much higher than on the Souval made orders, specially the enameling on the party badge.Comment
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Mr. Lumsden, I quote from your "Medals and Decorations of Hitler's Germany", 2001, at page 106; "the order is known to have been manufactured in at least two classes and SIX DIFFERENT VERSIONS, both with and without swords.." At page 104, the caption to a picture depicting a 2nd class German Order, you write, "Several undocumented and unauthorized variants of this mysterious decoration exist". Any comment?Comment
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Warlord: the "botton" you refer to is on the back of the alleged Souval "copy" of the first class neck order with Hitler's signature. It is a separate piece. On the Deumer made Order it is a one piece medal. It is rare in reproductions that the faker will make extra work for himself by manufacturing and assembling more parts rather than less. I still request that you provide the collecting community with your evidence that Deumer was the only maker. You treat us to a conclusion. Prove it please!Comment
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Mr. Lumsden, I quote from your excellent book "Medals and Decorations of Hitler's Germany", 2001, at page 106; "the order is known to have been manufactured in at least two classes and SIX DIFFERENT VERSIONS, both with and without swords.." At page 104, the caption to a picture depicting a 2nd class German Order, you write, "Several undocumented and unauthorized variants of this mysterious decoration exist". Any comment?Originally posted by Robin Lumsden View PostComment
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Dear matovsky, firstly I do not see what you are trying to prove. The cross as shown is a known Souval copy. I have photos of such a piece together with the breast star in case. The reverse of the breast star features the typical Souval catch. As to the proof of Deumer being the only maker, I have the letter from Mr Cosens. In this he also states that the remainging pieces were deposited with the Ludenshied Museum. From there I was given the black and white photos with measurements. Also I had colour photographs taken by the musseum.
As to what Souval would do to produce this award, if you examine the original with the copy, the differences would be self evident. These copys were reddily avalable from Souval in the 60's and 70's. Adrian Foreman had such a piece , together with others on a board in his shop window in Birmingham, in the 70's. They were clearly marked, Souval copy.
The history and description of the German Order will be in a new book. You will be able to see the results.
Again if you look at the photos of the known awards, Dr Fritz Todt and Reinhard Heidrick, close inspection of the funeral pillows will show the Deumer made piece, not the copy Souval.
My next question to you, have you examined the known original along side the Souval piece?Comment
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Hello Warlord,
Yes, I believe that my specimen is a museum copy - whether Souval made it or not, I can only surmise that it is either a war-time or immediate post-war specimen. As I mentioned earlier, the case interior does not glow under UV light. It has the look of age and the smell that doesn't look or smell like something from the 1970's. The (incorrect) Knights Cross silk ribbon has the look and feel, and also does not glow under UV light. There are no Souval markings whatsoever - only the incused 935 silver mark on the reverse of the suspender loop. If the photos supplied by Jon-Olav are that of a Souval copy, it still does not show the markings that my piece exhibits. How, and why, a wartime Knights Cross ribbon would be placed on my Deutscher Orden, I do not know.
Souval is not the only manufacturer to continue after the war, and not the only one to benefit from post-war sales. I hope that collectors won't identify Souval just for his pieces made after 1945 - his quality of work during the war was no different from most of the other makers.
Cheers,
BillComment
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This piece you have is known as a piece made by Souval. They were produced in the 60's and 70's. What more can be said. The fact that they do not glow, is a total irelavence. Cloth was avalable that was of the time. I have cotton thread from the 1890's what on earth dose this prove. The whole fact is your piece was not made in the War perriod. This is a final statement. It is a copy from the period mentioned.
These pieces can be found and turn hands at about the $100.00 range. I have had two of these plus one of the pin backed. The latter believe it or not is harder to find. As to the ribbon on yours, this could well have been put there to try and silver the load.
My advise is to return it to wence you obtained it and ask for a refund. It is a fake.Comment
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Warlord:
Please post for all to see, your letter from Deumer as to their exclusive contract with the Party. We also need photos of the Souval made German Order that you own with the classic Souval catch. Plus treat us to the black and white and color photos from the museum in Ludenschild that you have in your possession proving what a post war Souval made German Order actually looks like. A reasonable request.Comment
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Matowsky, I can appreciate your frustration and persistency, but perhaps you should take it slower (or eventually you'll end up like me, nobody cares to respond
). I'm sure you wouldn't spill the beans, should you be the author of a new publication dealing with this decoration. Once the book hit the shelfs, well then the race is open 
cheers
PeterComment
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The German Order will be covered in the new book. Also I can not post on this forum. Again I say that the cross is a copy. I humbly sugest you ask other notable collectors of decorations. I am sure they will concure.
The German Order was the highest Stat and Party award. One manufacturer is what was needed.
Dear matovsky, I would sugest you look at Dr Klietmans pamplet on the subject, he clearly explains the criteria and shows the Order. If you do the research you will find the truth of the Cross and the copy shown.Comment
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That's right.................the different versions are different grades of the Order, not a reference to different makers.Originally posted by matovsky View PostComment
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