3 Deutscher Orden in one lot!!!!! Rarest of The Rare

[Leroy]

In Post #41, the "A" in "D.A.P." of the roundel is not centered over the "X" which binds together the oakleaves. Is this still a sign of a copy, or just an "old wives tale"?

[Jon. H]

[ATTACH]1323079[/ATTACH]

[Jon. H]

I belive it's a fake, i have seen fake fake golden party badges that looks just like
this one

[WARLORD]

These pictures clearly show it is the Souval copy. Nice piece and hard to find.

[Jon. H]

Are the souval copys rare?

[sam steele]

Deutscher Orden

Thanks, Gents.....

As I said, the silk Knights Cross ribbon does not glow under UV light, and the thread binding the silk ties to the ribbon are also silk.

The satin inside the lid looks a little faded - I wonder if it was stained red from white? Again, no glow under the UV light.

I just have this feeling (and smell) that the case and ribbon are much older than the 1970's. Is buntmetall and tombak a heavy metal? This Order certainly has a weight to it.

All in all, a lovely specimen, regardless of other factors.

It's surely more affordable than the real McCoy!


Cheers,

Bill

[sam steele]

Deutscher Orden

Hi John-Olav,

From another Forum, I read that Manion's sold a similar or identical piece to this in 2001 for a little over $5000. I haven't yet substantiated this with Manion's.


Cheers,

Bill

[RonR]

A related thread.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...t=German+Order

[Jon. H]

Hi Bill,

Thanks for answer! 3 years ago i was offered an identical order, really heavy
with good enamel. The price was 1500usd, i was stupid enough to not buy it


Jon-Olav

[A.Doyle]

Hello to all.
About 10 years ago I saw a very interesting article on the Internet about the Deutscher Orden.
The information bellow is what I remenber from the article, as I do not have it anymore.
According to this article the Deutscher Orden was meant to be in several classes and not only with the well known three classes.
"A Grand Cross version with an eight-pointed gold star measuring about 95mm across, may existed as a prototype. The Deutscher Orden mounted on this star was the very same size to the pin back version. A sash, also did exist. The sash was 100mm wide with a golden 3mm stripe in the middle of it. The Deutscher Orden suspended by the sash measured 75mm."
To an even higher class the first class neck cross with swords could be worn together with the group above".
Now, this information above is not really too impressive. Note that the higher classes of the Eagle Order had similar figures. The sash on Eagle Orders had in fact 100mm wide.
The golden stripe to this prototype sash may be similar to the white stripe found on the 1943 Eagle Order version to the sash. Only, the white stripe of the 1943 Eagle Order version had 2.5mm. Since the Deutscher Order was created in 1942 and the stripe of the Eagle Order came for the first time in 1943, this design is quite possible.
The decoration suspended by the sash (75mm) is a lot bigger to those found on Eagle Orders with only 66mm.
The Deutsche Order star is also very big with 95mm in comparision to the 90mm Eagle Order star.
Also, the use of the First Class, together with the special group as a much higher class is not something new, as the Special Class to the Social Welfare Order had similar regulation long before.
The information above may be pure especulation, but it seems logical somehaw, and it does make sense. Unlikely perhaps, but possible however.
Rob Lumsden is correct, the Deutscher Orden belonging to Reichsminister Fritz Todt and SS-Obergruppenführer Reinhard Heydrich are different. They are, however, very, very close to the version made by Rudolf Souval, after the war, with Wilhelm Deumer original dies.
And yes, Deutscher Orden made by Souval are very rare, not many were made. The ribbons are wartime originals made by Karl Loy of München.
Best Regards,
Aylson Doyle

[FrankS]

This one just sold at Herrman Historica auction for 4,400 Euro. It was described as S&L manufactured. They stated that it is unclear if S&L ever produced this order during the war or if it is post war manufacturing.

[Mark Costa]

In regards to Robin's comments about the Wagner award. I have searched for decades for a photo of the award as presented to Wagner. However, no photo of the funeral pillows have ever surfaced AFTER the award was pinned to the pillow. The award was pinned at the Honor Temples just before Wagner's coffin was lowered into its grave. I have seen a photo of the pinning of it but never the actual decoration itself.

The article that supposedly showed the award to Hierl was not original decoration given to him. The original presented in Feb 1945 was sold in the 1950's to a private collector and has never surfaced.

Mark Costa

[Jon Fish]

Thanks, Gents.....

As I said, the silk Knights Cross ribbon does not glow under UV light, and the thread binding the silk ties to the ribbon are also silk.

The satin inside the lid looks a little faded - I wonder if it was stained red from white? Again, no glow under the UV light.

I just have this feeling (and smell) that the case and ribbon are much older than the 1970's. Is buntmetall and tombak a heavy metal? This Order certainly has a weight to it.

All in all, a lovely specimen, regardless of other factors.

It's surely more affordable than the real McCoy!


Cheers,

Bill

Whatever the quality if its post war then its fake and only valuable as a trinket,to sell for thousands is crazy.I would not go higher than $100 !

[WARLORD]

The Grand Cross set of the Geran Order, was and 8 pointed star with the neck order with laurel leaves. This was produced by Souval.

The original German Order with oakleaves and swords produced by Deumer, the only manufacturer , had the reverse of the swords plain. However, this could be just a one off. But it dose bring the question why was the one originally shown having the swords finished on the reverse.

[Leroy]

If Deumer was the original manufacturer and Souval bought Deumer's dies after the war, how can you distinguish between the original and the copy? Just workmanship?