If my memory serves me well the silver badge did not have the stamp. I have pictures of the reverse somewhere, will dig up later as i have not much time tonight.
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That's what I thought as well. How was it attributed to Deschler then?Originally posted by jabnus View PostComment
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Thanks to all for explaining the 189. A real puzzlement.
Erich, the silver and first patter CB may both be unmarked on the reverse, but there are significant differences in the obverse, including hilt, skyline, size and placement of letters on the wreath and so forth. Chris A. described it to me as a complex jewelers creation which doesn't seem to fit the S-C prerequisite of an inexpensive badge for the Coburg NSDAP to produce for those vets participating the Hitler Days in Coburg 1932.Comment
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Matt,Originally posted by Matthew View Post
There seems to be some fevorish need to attribute every badge and medal to a maker. Some of these attributions are as flimsy as a stripper's costume and some have credibility. I suscribe to the idea of finding another badge, with idendical hardware that is complete with maker mark. Even that is circumstancial, but at least it provides a lead worth following. I woukd be looking fo makers around Coburg and also those who curried favor with the NSDAP in 1933. Until there is real evidence, I can live with ''maker unknown''.
The biggest clue we have is the 189 mark on some second model badges.
Bob HritzIn the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.
Duct tape can't fix stupid, but it can muffle the sound.Comment
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I have seen few sources (mostly German) attributing the badge to Deschler and thought there was some meat behind it. We do know that Deschler made prototypes of CB- tombak with white enamel and maybe even the red swastika variant. Either way it looks like the Party put up a contract and Deschler was one of the companies that answered the call. Whether that means they made the badge we all came to know and love- 1st and/or 2nd pattern is unknown.
Problem with matching anything by the hardware is that more often than not we find different companies using same hardware. The fact that by 1933 that industry grew to become a conglomerate does not help either.
I just thought that a decoration of this much importance would be mentioned somewhere in period documents, newspapers- I presume it was quite the achievement to be chosen as the manufacturer of this badge. It was also used as a advertising method back then. I remember looking at Meybauer ad in Uniformen-Markt advertising themselves as the makers of New Honor Cross- whichever cross them meant the intent was obvious- it meant something to be recognized as a company behind certain products.
I am surprised that no marked (as in a name) CB's have surfaced but I tend to agree with you on the 189 stamp. It is probably our best clue- time will tell I am sure..
cheers
MattComment
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Matt, the local party affiliate in Coburg led by Schwede-Coburg put the affair together, had the badges produced after a general design arranged by Hitler but obviously finished by S-C and the Coburg group as Hitler's design has no provision for wording. There was no time or need for proto-types, as there were only a few weeks to put this together and the design was Hitler's. Who was going to challenge it with design prototypes?Originally posted by Matthew View Post
As the event honoring the ten anniversary of the Coburg March was intended to tie in with Hitler's visit during his historic air tour of Germany prior to the late 1932 elections, IMO the Coburg group decided on the wording Mit Hitler in Coburg 1922-1932, as it aptly described the celebration of the first march and the pre-election visit of Hitler in Coburg.Comment
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more questions than answers on this one
By prototype I mean the manufacturers rendition of the proposed design. I would consider both to be closely in line with what has been described as Hitler's sketch of the award showing the desired look of it. In that respect I do not think anyone challenged 'his' design but rather brought it to life- call it a pre production run or a sample of the finished product - practice not unheard of in that industry. Time wise- do we know with any degree of certainty when the idea of those being made was really born?
Having said that- what is your take on the less common variants ?
cheers
MattComment
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Earlier in this thread we discussed two well documented German sources (Klietmann and Patzwall) that dealt in detail with the preparations for and activities of the "Hitlertag" events of October 15-16, 1932, during which time those veterans of the Coburg March of 1922 received their award. The communications between Schwede-Coburg and the Kanzlei des Führers dated September 17, 1932 indicated the Ortsgruppe Coburg ordered 600 examples of the solid punched out/stamped badges at RM 1,50 each. I do not remember if I had mentioned this purchase number earlier in this extended thread. I do remember indicating that Schwede-Coburg reported in his 1939 book "Kampf um Coburg" that only 250 were presented at the award ceremony before Hitler's arrival by air in Coburg on the 16th. So that would account for a larger number of first strikes that would have been available for distribution to vetted recipients along with the Besitz-Zeugnis. Perhaps when the supply of the first 600 was exhausted, the party in Munich authorized additional examples through the RZM for new applicants or permitted non-participant requests.Originally posted by Matthew View Post
IMO, the time frame, the cost and the fact that it was an Ortsgruppe ordering these badges, indicated that elaborate preparations for the badge to include pre-production examples, was not likely.
About the silver badges I can only think of a special prep for the Boss. Littlejohn indicated the Coburg badge and a rider's badge were sourced from Albert Bormann. He wrote that the two items were the 11th and 12th purchases of 1964. He further wrote "Formerly belonged to NSKK Obergruppenführer Bormann (£30 @)" But there is no indication if he purchased them from the estate or that he had any way of knowing whether it was presented to Bormann. This is from my viewing of the Littlejohn ledger that Chris A. shared with me.
Klietmann" work from 1982 acknowledges the silver/red enamel badge from the collectin of David Littlejohn. He also pictures two examples of copies from Souval: one from 1964 that was a hollow back stamping (Hohl gepreßt) that featured a cut-out swaz and one from 1973 that was another hollow back stamping but not cut-out.
Reading through the Patzwall article again, I see that he attributed the production of the bronze colored version to Deschler of Munich. He also mentions the silver/red enamel examples. Yes, he recognized two examples. His source for the Deschler association was an article in German OMM magazine.Comment
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Matt, I should have continued this paragraph. So what does one think of Littlejohn's denoting the source of the badge? Well, there is no way to know if Albert Bormann had been awarded a CB of any kind. So perhaps it came into his possession in some manner? From his brother? Who received it from AH who didn't care to wear it or what? And what of the other one. Chris described the badge as not a simple stamping. It was assembled from a base of the wreath and a swaz onto which were applied the enameled swastika and the sword. As I wrote earlier, the detail of the Coburg skyline is much more detailed than the original bronze versions and the hilt is much thicker. Lettering seems to be different too.Originally posted by JoeW View PostComment
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The Coburg 1922-1932 silver color badge that has been called a tinnie is referred to in one of the German articles as the "Festabzeichen" for the 1932 anniversary celebration. I think this is perhaps a more apt term for a badge that served a purpose similar to the Festabzeichen of the Blood Order celebration. And I think this is the badge that is seen in some of the photos shown earlier in this thread of the 1932 celebration.Originally posted by JoeW View Post
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A silver presentation casket previously belonging to Johann Singer has been sold through HH couple of years back. It had a silver CB on the face of it along with the dedication from his Party Comrades on the occasion of 15th Anniversary of the Coburg March.
The badge used on that box is a bona fide Coburg Badge, apparently struck like the originals were rather than a cast of the real thing. With the exception of materials used it is apparently the same badge- sans the hardware of course.
The box has been manufactured by the company of Eduard Wollenweber of Munich, probably the most famous silversmith and jeweler of that region at the time.
Reason I bring this up is that it was relatively common practice to number stamp some of the products for certain jewelry makers. Whether it was their own catalog code or something else I do not know but Wollenweber was also known to stamp some of their products with three or four digit numbers that seemingly do not correspond to anything yet appear on some of their wares.
Granted, I am yet to see any of their products made in lowly brass and this might just be a wishful thinking on my part but at least we know that they were responsible for at least one CB....Then again- Deschler wasn't that far from EW shop- could probably ring the man and have a gopher pick it up fresh off the press that afternoon... It would be nice to find out how Deschler was mixed into this to begin with but so far it looks like one guy is quoting another with no materials to back up their joint claims...
I believe that the idea of creating a badge commemoration the events of 1922 in Coburg was born much earlier and that a good amount of preparation went into this process. I do not think Schwede decided to come up with a pin and suddenly realized he knew only one person who could design such a thing, much less told him to hurry up as time was of essence (BTW- Hitler's sketch did have provision for wording- well, kinda- some of it anyways).
Re- the red swastika version- I remember holding it in my hands and as wonderful as the piece is I really do not recall any multi-part construction or separately applied sword et al. Most magnificent nonetheless.
If anyone has an access to RZM Handbuch and would be willing to check if Wollenweber shows up on the rolls of known (mass) manufacturers of Zee Natzee material I would be most grateful..
Aaaaand I'm back to square one.
Have a good weekend everyone.
MattComment
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Matt, I don't have access to an RZM list. Wish I did.
Interesting that one of the principal signatures on that silver casket was Schwede-Koburg.
I must apologize for there was the letters "In Coburg" visible in the wreath of Hitler's drawing published in the S-C book. But please elaborate on your belief about the time frame of the preparation and creation of the CB. Is there some other period published recollection of those events, or are you interpreting S-C description in his books in another manner? I mean the time frame of the events seem to be substantiated by the documentation of the correspondence with the Kanzlei.
Chris allowed me to use the photos that he sent to me. This photo of the reverse of the silver badge seems identical to the standard brass CB.
Note the sword and the swaz are merged together on the reverse. And on the obverse, the swaz just touches the inner edge of the wreath with the sword above and below.
But on this silver badge, the enameled swaz overlaps the inside wreath edge much more than the brass version. To achieve this, the swas had to be applied over the base design of the award. And as the sword is over the swaz, it to would have to be applied to the badge.
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The silver version with the red swastika is much more detailed and much more three dimensional but I still think it is a one piece striking. I do not think that this effect could only be achieved using separate overlapping parts- the die had to be thicker to accommodate for detail but other than that don't see the reason to do it. In fact I think it would complicate thing without a valid reason to do it from a construction point of view.Originally posted by JoeW View Post
Typically multi part construction was employed when the 'top layer' of the striking was bigger in size than the 'base' thus making the single striking impossible or if different materials were used.
That could of course be determined looking at the cross section of the specimen where the supposed layers meet.
The book by S-C gives us some insights into the 'Coburg Affair' but his timeline as pertaining to the award itself seem to start about a month prior to the official Ceremonies. It has been a while since I had a pleasure of flipping through the pages of the book so correct me if I am wrong but nothing there indicates who really (and most importantly when) is responsible for the idea of this award's inception. I think we can agree that S-C's call to order 600 badges was but a product of a process that started some (long?) time prior to September 1932.
Was the idea of this award's inception born at a Beer Hall somewhere in Germany when the events of times past were discussed amongst those that took part, was it strictly a politically motivated move that had little to do with honoring those that were there, was it Hitler who suggested the creation of it, S-C or a group of Alte Kampfers when having drinks?
To answer your question- I am not aware of any other period publication giving more insight into this award unfortunately.
cheers
MattComment
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It has been well over 40 years sine I saw the example owned by Bill Rasmussen. I do not recall handling it as I did not touch material that I could not afford to buy, especially when I was younger and eager to learn and be polite to my elders. I will have to make a trip to GB and visit Chris Ailsby, who made such invitation. It will be a thrill to see this type of Coburg badge. I just cannot recall it being of multi-piece construction, but my memory is not clear, that far back.
Bob HritzIn the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.
Duct tape can't fix stupid, but it can muffle the sound.Comment
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