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**jabnus** · 07-30-2014, 06:22 PM

That is correct.

**Matthew** · 07-30-2014, 06:29 PM

Every time the special version is mentioned a note is made as to two known in existence. Anyone knows the whereabouts of the second one?

cheers

Matt

**ErichS** · 07-30-2014, 06:42 PM

Originally posted by Matthew View Post

Every time the special version is mentioned a note is made as to two known in existence. Anyone knows the whereabouts of the second one?

cheers

Matt

Good question Matt but alas the Ailsby badge is the only one known but possibly a second one exists locked away in a private collection. I have no doubt on the authenticity of the badge which has exactly the same needle pin attachment as the 1st pattern badges which leads me to believe that it was of early manufacture.

**Bob Hritz** · 07-30-2014, 06:49 PM

In 1972, I examined the example of the silver and enamel Coburg badge owned by Bill Rasmussen of Royak Oaks, Michigan. Bill has long ago passed on, and his family has no knowledge of the whereabouts of this badge. I do not know if it is the same badge illustrated in Littlejohn and Dodkins or if it was a different badge. At $1000.00, in 1972, it was the same cost of 3 cased knight's Crosses and far above what I could afford. I always regretted not trying to make a deal to acquire it.

Bill also had the star to the Eagle order with red enamel. He believed they were both prototypes and not award pieces. I do not know the purpose, but was impressed at the beauty of the Coburg badge. The Eagle Order looked ugly with red enamel.

Bob Hritz

**Richard** · 07-30-2014, 10:04 PM

So these were thought of as a prototype at one time. Is the one Bill Rasmussen had the one that Ailsby now owns or is it a different one? I re-iterate my earlier question on any period mention of these badges? If no period mention, when did these first come to light and under what circumstances? Based on Bob's first hand knowledge, they go back to at least 1972 at which point in time it is doubtful anyone would have put this much effort and quality into creating this. Construction seems to conform to the first pattern but the purpose seems to be lost in the fog of history.
Richard V

**JoeW** · 07-31-2014, 01:14 AM

Originally posted by Richard View Post

So these were thought of as a prototype at one time. Is the one Bill Rasmussen had the one that Ailsby now owns or is it a different one? I re-iterate my earlier question on any period mention of these badges? If no period mention, when did these first come to light and under what circumstances? Based on Bob's first hand knowledge, they go back to at least 1972 at which point in time it is doubtful anyone would have put this much effort and quality into creating this. Construction seems to conform to the first pattern but the purpose seems to be lost in the fog of history.
Richard V

Richard, I don't think anyone has come up with period documentation. I haven't seen any and I have been looking for quite a while.

Well Bob thought they were prototypes. I guess everyone has an opinion. 6/5 pick'em.

First appearance that I know of was in Littlejohn's book published in 1968; and, Ailsby bought Littlejohn's. So if Bob saw another at Rasmussen's in 1972, it really couldn't be the same, could it. And if it appeared in Littlejohn's in 1968, then it goes back farther. But I believe some unsavory creativity was active back then.

AH should have gotten one, but he isn't on the list, is he. We don't know how many badges Schwede-Coburg had produced for the award ceremony. He wrote that 250 showed up for the event the was to coincide with the hoped-for appearance of Hitler for an election rally later in the afternoon. Perhaps S-C had some left-over? We don't know. But perhaps the silver/red ones were intended for Hitler and Dietrich, the two men at the core of the Coburg March. But Hitler didn't like garish awards (the would turn him off I would think) and the other was Dietrich's? Just some thoughts.

**Richard** · 07-31-2014, 06:56 AM

Originally posted by JoeW View Post

Richard, I don't think anyone has come up with period documentation. I haven't seen any and I have been looking for quite a while.

Well Bob thought they were prototypes. I guess everyone has an opinion. 6/5 pick'em.

First appearance that I know of was in Littlejohn's book published in 1968; and, Ailsby bought Littlejohn's. So if Bob saw another at Rasmussen's in 1972, it really couldn't be the same, could it. And if it appeared in Littlejohn's in 1968, then it goes back farther. But I believe some unsavory creativity was active back then.

AH should have gotten one, but he isn't on the list, is he. We don't know how many badges Schwede-Coburg had produced for the award ceremony. He wrote that 250 showed up for the event the was to coincide with the hoped-for appearance of Hitler for an election rally later in the afternoon. Perhaps S-C had some left-over? We don't know. But perhaps the silver/red ones were intended for Hitler and Dietrich, the two men at the core of the Coburg March. But Hitler didn't like garish awards (the would turn him off I would think) and the other was Dietrich's? Just some thoughts.

If Littlejohn had his by at least 1968, either the one Bob saw was that one in transition between Littlejohn and Ailsby, or it confirms at least two exist. Does anyone know if Littlejohn sold it directly to Ailsby or if it changed hands between him and the eventual ownership by Ailsby?
Richard V

**ErichS** · 07-31-2014, 07:29 AM

IMO, the CB was awarded to those followers who took part in the march along side Hitler so it would seem a bit redundant to me if Hitler wore an award with the motto "Mit Hitler in Coburg."

**JoeW** · 07-31-2014, 07:50 AM

But Erich, you write that the old fighters always put down the newer party members by asking "Ah, but were you in Coburg?" Then why wouldn't they say "Ah, but were you with Hitler in Couburg?" Hitler may have had a hand in designing the badge, as detailed in the S-C book, but IMO, the inscription was put together by S-C and the party brass in Munich as he wrote. The badge presentation was meant to tie in with the Hitler visit during the election campaign. The city fathers knew Coburg was on the campaign trail. They prepared a Ehrenurkunde for citizenship.

So it was not redundant for Hitler to wear the Blood Order because it didn't say Mit Hitler in München?

Richard, Littlejohn's collection went directly to Ailsby.

**ErichS** · 07-31-2014, 07:57 AM

Originally posted by JoeW View Post

But Erich, you write that the old fighters always put down the newer party members by asking "Ah, but were you in Coburg?" Then why wouldn't they say "Ah, but were you with Hitler in Couburg?" Hitler may have had a hand in designing the badge, as detailed in the S-C book, but IMO, the inscription was put together by S-C and the party brass in Munich as he wrote. The badge presentation was meant to tie in with the Hitler visit during the election campaign. The city fathers knew Coburg was on the campaign trail. They prepared a Ehrenurkunde for citizenship.

So it was not redundant for Hitler to wear the Blood Order because it didn't say Mit Hitler in München?

Richard, Littlejohn's collection went directly to Ailsby.

No Joe, the BOs motto translated is," and yet you have conquered"so it was not redundant.

**Matthew** · 07-31-2014, 12:43 PM

c'burg

Thanks Bob- that is likely why two of those are mentioned. Did Bill ever give out any details as to how he came in possession of the badge or where it was found?
I remember holding the one from Chris' collection but at the time I was preoccupied with different pieces so never thought to take a pic of it. Don't really recall what type hardware it had but if it does match the first model of the regular badge, that might be a clue as to who was responsible for manufacturing those. Still, the 189 stamp is- at least to me- bit enigmatic.

cheers

Matt

**JoeW** · 07-31-2014, 12:58 PM

Originally posted by ErichS View Post

No Joe, the BOs motto translated is," and yet you have conquered"so it was not redundant.

I know the motto Erich. The point is in both instances Hitler was in the middle of the action, but whereas he was awarded a BO, he was denied a CB because the badge read "Mit Hitler in Coburg"? Schwede-Coburg decided to stiff the Führer over that point?

Matt, I must have forgotten or missed the point. What is the 189 stamp?

**Bob Hritz** · 07-31-2014, 01:14 PM

Joe,

On some of the second pattern Coburg badges, the marking is in the center of the badge. These are marked RZM (in a circle) 189. I know of several, with that mark, and was hoping this could lead to the maker's information.

Bob hritz

**Matthew** · 07-31-2014, 01:18 PM

Originally posted by JoeW View Post

Matt, I must have forgotten or missed the point. What is the 189 stamp?

Some Coburg badges are stamped '189' on the verso. I would imagine it was some sort of maker's stamp as opposed to award number (more than one carry this stamp). Some say it was the pre-RZM manufacturer's number but problem is- it seem to be too high for that.

cheers

Matt

**Bob Hritz** · 07-31-2014, 01:25 PM

Here is a photo of one of the 189 marked badges.

Bob Hritz

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