SA Brown Shirt for review

[FrankS]

Details of the shoulderboard:

[FrankS]

Details of the sleeve stripes. The thread and stripes are non glowing under uv-light.

[FrankS]

The swastika armband is tacked in two places to the sleeve with dark/black thread.

Interesting Detail is, that the top and bottom stiching line on the armband is made in brown thread. It is not faded white as you can see on the inside photo, where the swastika circle is stitched with white thread and the other stitching line is definitely in brown.

[FrankS]

the only label I found in the shirt:



crudely stitched attachment loops for medals:

[FrankS]

This hat was found along with the shirt in the trunk.

Found with it doesn't mean worn with it. This will probably be worn with a 4-pocket service tunic. But then - who knows how, when and why?

[sgstandard]

Shirt

Since kepis are fairly rare, there's a better chance the shirt and cap came together. But there's an addage among collecters: Buy the item, not the story that comes with it. That's not to say the trunk story isn't true. But in this high-priced hobby, skepticism can be your best friend. Bear with me while I give you an alternate possibility. Someone wants to put together an ensemble. They have a brownshirt, but need a kepi to complete the ensemble. They find a kepi, but it's an officer's. Then, they have to alter the shirt to match the kepi by making IT an officer's, but they can only find SOME of the parts. The parts they may have added are easy to attain (shoulderboard & pips), but where are they going to find the piping? This is, of course, speculation, but a VERY possible scenario. I DO like the way the tabs are attached. I've seen originals done like this. Since there's evidence of prior attachments, that could mean the tabs were either removed for laundering, or assembled post war. I HIGHLY recommend a burn test on ALL attachment threads possible. (The thread that is used to attach all the pertinent parts) (shoulderboard, collar tabs, armband, and the thread that attaches the piping to the kepi). Using a small pair of scissors or nail clipper, find the end of a loose piece of thread that attaches these insignias to the uniform, and clip off a small piece. Holding the piece of thread with a pair of tweezers, touch a match to the thread quickly. If it disintigrates or burns cleanly, it's cotton, and MAY be original. If it melts into a ball at the end, it's polyester, and DEFINITELY NOT an original attachment. Practice this with some other loose thread first, to see what I mean. This is VERY easy, and with no risk to the uniform. DO NOT DO THE TEST WHILE THE THREAD IS ATTACHED TO THE UNIFORM!!! Please do this test, and let us know what you find.

[Bob Coleman]

I Believe All Of This Grouping Is How The Original Owner Put It Together. The Kepi Is An Enlisted Ranks With Upgraded Crown Piping. The Crown Piping Was Not Installed When The Hat Was Made But An Afterthought, Likely By A Tailor. There Is Also Evidence Ot The 1929 Pattern Eagle Having Been Worn On This Piece, Placing The Kepi At A Much Older Age Than The Insignia. . The Collar Tabs Are Also Nco Tabs Upgraded When The Individual Was Promoted To A Staff Officer Position. The Sturm Number Was Picked Out Of The Tab. The Rank Tab Is A Modified Nco Tab. Note That The Litze Is Under A Pip, Which Is Not A Proper Mounting. This Is A Reflection Of An Individual Who Did Not Have The Resources To Completely Update His Uniform To Code. When Uniform Change Was Implemented, The Wearer Was Allowed One And One Half Years To Comply. One Need Only Look At The Majority Of Political Leader Brown Shirts On The Market And In Collections. I Have Only Seen A Handful With 1939 Pattern Insignia. I Believe This To Be The Correct Scenario For What This Group Represents.

[John Huff]

Careful, Bob. You may be accused of "contributing zero to the discussion"

[sgstandard]

Shirt

I'd like to mention ANOTHER reason I was questioning this outfit. Stranger things have happened, of course, but I was wondering why the kepi is wool, not the cotton type, if this whole ensemble was found together, as though the guy just took it off, and into the trunk it went. I realize he could have just worn it this way, or another explanation could be the age-old problem of assembling things that match. The collector needed a Niedersachsen kepi, and the first or only one that came along happened to be wool. To be perfectly clear, I spoke with the owner of the ensemble, and told him the entire outfit may be completely original. I NEVER told him it was put together. I only pointed out that possibility, and why I felt it was possible. With so many uniforms having been re-assembled post-war, I'd be remiss if I wasn't skeptical, especially when the uniform doesn't conform to regulation. Not only did I call his attention to these possibilities, but encouraged him to perform a simple burn test that may or may not prove anything. But it certainly doesn't hurt. So I ask you, what if the thread that holds the shoulder board on turned out to be polyester? Were any burn tests performed, and what were the results? And as for contributing zero, at the time my comment was made, your contribution WAS zero, because your assertion that I didn't know what I was talking about was without basis. You were only guessing, not providing the gentleman with any information to possibly ascertain originality. Assuming the items are original, or came together because someone says they came out of a trunk is somewhat naive, because EVERY item comes with a story that involves an old trunk, a barn, or the widow of a vet. HAVING SAID ALL THIS - You probably think I'm an a@@hole by now, but I value your opinion as well, and you're actually probably correct in your assessment. If you think I'M skeptical, go visit the SS forum, where by now, every loose thread would have been burnt off that poor uniform, neutron microscopes would have been brought in, and a forensics lab would be involved. And then, they'd STILL be skeptical!!

[Erich B.]

If you think I'M skeptical, go visit the SS forum, where by now, every loose thread would have been burnt off that poor uniform, neutron microscopes would have been brought in, and a forensics lab would be involved. And then, they'd STILL be skeptical!!

Well said! And IMO the only 'zero added value' posts are those like "I don't know anything about ..........(something), but I don't like it." or "I don't collect those, and I've never seen one in person but I had a friend who once saw a picture of one, and I think it's fake."

Erich

[Bob Coleman]

In The Long Run, Only Frank Knows The Source Of This Material. He Is Also The Only One Who Needs To Be Satisfied With This Material. Nothing In This Shirt And Kepi Is Textbook As It Presently Sits. The Crown Piping On The Kepi Appears To Be Collar Tab Cord. I Have Never Seen An Officer' S Kepi With Non Metalic Piping. It Is Odd What People Stored And Retained After The War. I Own A Tunic, Brownshirt, Three Belts, A Ribbon Bar And A Wool Kepi That All Belonged To The Same Austrian S A Officer And Blood Order Recipient. I Am Certain He Had The Cotton Kepi At One Time. However, For Some Reason, It Was Not Retained. The Majority Of Officer Kepis I Own And Have Seen Are Wool. This Would Lead Me To Believe That Possibly, Many Officers, Who Would Require The Wear Of The Tunic More Than The Brownshirt, Only Retained A Wool Kepi. The Answer To This Grouping Will Never Be Known. We Can Only Speculate By The Clues Left With The Artifacts.

[Bob Coleman]

Well said! And IMO the only 'zero added value' posts are those like "I don't know anything about ..........(something), but I don't like it." or "I don't collect those, and I've never seen one in person but I had a friend who once saw a picture of one, and I think it's fake."

Erich

ALSO WELL SAID

[FrankS]

I performed a burn test with 4 pieces of thread - 3 from the tab sewing and one piece from the collar, where the piping was probably formerly attached.

All burned up with a small flame - very quickly. There were about no remains, just a tiny piece and when I touched it, it was practically gone, not even ashess smeared on the fingers - nothing.

I took some before and after photos and will post them in a couple of minutes.

photos of the burn test:

first photo shows the 4 pieces of thread. One piece of these 4 is the one shown in post # 15 - on the photo with the 136 tab, sticking out on the edge, right above the number 6.



here are the remains on the tip of the tweezers. This photo is magnified - in real it was hard to see.


regular size photo


This white little thing was gone when I touched it. There wasn't even anything to feel - just nothing.

[sgstandard]

Shirt

MR. HUFF - I apologize for the "zero" remark.

[laurens]

A very interesting set, wich deserves such a discussion!

I think it's impossible to cover it all. Only the person who add the insignia to the shirt have known.

Questions I have;

Why did the Obersturmführer add crown-piping to the kepi but forgot on the other hand the collar tabs=!? Seems he did know something about regulations. Conclusion for me that kepi and shirt doesn´t belong to eachother.

What's with the unti collar tab? Maybe he was from Reserve-Standarte 136 first. Most of the Reserve-Standartes were abolished during the war.

I like the shirt. Normally I would pass on it because I see to many doubts, but this set breathe authenticity.


Period pictures of course made it only more difficult, because you can expect to see anything wore by those SA men!!


Best,

laurens