SA Brown Shirt for review

[FrankS]

Here are some photos of a SA Brown Shirt I have in my posession for quite some time now.
The shirt was found years ago in the attic of a house in Hannover The collar tabs, shoulderstrap and sleeve bands were still on it like shown here. The swastika armband is held in place with some stitches.
Along with the shirt were the belt with buckle, the shoulderstrap and the matching SA hat.
For the display I added the tie with party pin and the medals shown here on the shirt - they didn't come with the shirt.

One "Expert" I'm in contact with keeps on telling me that the shirt can't be right because there is no piping around the collar or collar tabs. He claims there should either be the two color piping or later a silver piping.

I was always under the impression that at one point (1939?/1940?) the collar piping was abandoned?

I hope the valued members of this forum can clarify this question.

Thanks and best Regards,

Frank

[Erich B.]

Frank,
Nice ensemble. It's correct that for an SA leader's rank, the tabs would have either 2 color piping (early) or yellow celleon for a wartime setup. The collar itself would have been piped initially but it was the collar piping that was eventually eliminated, while leaders retained the tab piping.
Erich

[FrankS]

Erich,

thanks for the super fast reply.

Then this shirt should have piping around the tabs, right?

[Erich B.]

Exactly.
Are the pips gold or silver? And the cap piping? The tab piping should match the cap piping and the color of the shoulderboard cording.
Erich

[FrankS]

The pips are gold, the cap piping is yellowish/gold. The shoulderboard cording is white with grey underlay.

Is it possible that this shirt was worn without the piping on the tabs?
Did this happen?
Maybe he kept on wearing his tabs when he was promoted to an officer?

In the following days I will add close up photos of the tabs, sewing of the tabs, the shoulderboard, the armbands and the hat.

Erich, thanks a lot for your input.

Best regards,

Frank

[sgstandard]

SA Shirt

1. This pattern officer's shoulderboard was worn from late 1938-1945 2. In late 1940/early 1941, they eliminated collar piping for all ranks except Chief of Staff. From May 1941-1945, only silver buttons were used. So to be correct, this shirt could have been worn from late 1940 through May 1941. Only one problem - It STILL should have gold twist cord piping around the collar tabs, or possibly the gold cellophan acetate twisted cord that is metallic in appearance. However, when the cellophan piping was authorized, silver buttons were part of the same order. BOTTOM LINE is that the uniform would probably be correct if it had gold twist piping and, of course, some regulations seemed to overlap. My guess is that the shirt has a good chance of being put together post war. Only hands-on inspection could tell.

[sgstandard]

SA Shirt

OK - Now the kepi - Because of the gold piping, it falls into the late 1938 - late 1940 range, because after late 1940, the Obersturmfuhrer rank wore SILVER piping on the kepi. (From late 1940 on, the kepi piping and collar tab piping might not match, depending on the SA gruppe.) IS THE KEPI PIPING METAL TWIST CORD, OR CELLOPHAN ACETATE TWIST CORD THAT RESEMBLES METAL? It's likely metal. The 2 things that bother me the most. 1. No gold piping on collar tabs. 2. When the collar piping was discontinued in 1940/41, the kepi piping changed to silver. Therefore, technically, I'd like to see gold twisted piping on the collar as well. As for him not wearing piping around his collar tabs intentionally, I think it's unlikely. He WAS an officer!! Then again, I guess stranger things have happened. I suggest not falling into the trap of making excuses foe inconsistencies. Certainly, regulations had overlaps, like I said, but usually when things don't add up, it's cause they wrong.

[John Huff]

I think this is boulderdash... If the shirt was discovered as shown... the regulations so confusing...and the individual responsible for his own uniform... then anything is possible or even probable.

[FrankS]

Thanks for your comments.

It was found like this in a wooden trunk along with the hat. The hat is made from wool material, so the original owner used it probably along with a 4-pocket tunic. Or were the wool material hats worn with the cotton material Brown shirt.

Nothing beats a hand on inspection, but I will post some close up photos within the next days.

[sgstandard]

SA Shirt

MR HUFF - You can call it boulderdash all you want, but I was merely explaining what the SA uniform regulations were. Just because YOU don't understand them doesn't mean they weren't adhered to, at least generally. The reason so many SA uniforms are incorrect is because people who piece them together don't take the time to research them properly. If you again read my post I DID say that there were periods where regulations overlapped. However, that doesn't explain why an officer wouldn't wear officers tabs. I gave the guy every uniform regulation that is pertinent to his inquiry. How much information have you provided? That would be zero.

[Erich B.]

There are numerous possibilities here, and I believe the shirt and kepi have not been post war modified. A few scenarios:

1. The officer had the collar and/or tab piping pulled from the shirt to use on the tunic collar and tabs
2. The officer wore the shirt as is, despite the variance from the official rules
3. The officer left the SA and enlisted in the armed forces prior to the button change in 41.
4. The shoulderboard should also have yellow/gold cording to match the kepi piping, pip color, etc. Did the officer have the wrong one applied? Did he change SA groups at some point and only partially upgrade his shirt?
5. The unit tab looks as though it used to have a number and slash, or metal device to the left of the Standarte number--so he probably did change his position in the Standarte. It was common to remove numbers that no longer applied rather than to purchase a new collar tab, despite the low cost involved.

Also it's important to remember that, for the most part, SA members were unpaid volunteers who served part time only. They were motivated to follow uniform regulations but in many cases (as seen in period photos) they either misunderstood, could not afford, never received updated regulations, or for whatever reason did not exactly conform to regulations.
Erich

[sgstandard]

Shirt

Erich is correct that the shoulder board should have gold colored braids, to go with the gold buttons (1938-1940 regulations). However, I believe ALL junior officer boards had only silver braids after 1940. Assuming this shirt is, indeed, found as worn, the SA officer would have had to: REPLACE HIS SHOULDERBOARD AND REMOVE HIS COLLAR PIPING PER 1940 REGULATION, BUT NEGLECT TO CHANGE THE BUTTONS AND NEGLECT TO CHANGE HIS KEPI PIPING TO SILVER. THE 1940 CHANGE WAS IMPLEMENTED IN MAY, SO WHY WOULD HE REMOVE HIS TAB PIPING TO PUT IT ON A TUNIC JUST IN TIME FOR THE SUMMER? That's not to say this couldn't have happened.
Erich is certainly correct about regulations not always being adhered to. However, many SA men, especially officers, were WWI veterans, and very regulation orientated. This shirt may INDEED be original. I don't mean to cast doubts on the "trunk" story either, but when a uniform is incorrect, further investigation is warranted. "Found in a trunk in Dusseldorf" always sounds convincing, but it never hurts to be skeptical. Measure the dimensions of both collar tabs and look at their size and shape. If they're different, it could have been a period done rank upgrade, or someone restoring a tunic and not having a matching pair. (Doesn't really prove anything exactly, but at you'll know if it's actually a pair.) Look for evidence that collar piping was attached at one time. There will probably still be holes. Look at the thread attaching the shoulder board to see if it looks period. German thread has a distinct appearance, like a tiny rope. If there's a long enough thread sticking out, carefully snip off a piece and do a burn test. If it beads up like melted plastic, it's modern polyester thread. If it disintegrates or just burns up, all that proves is that it's at least the correct cotton thread (and possibly original). Look around the edge of the tab for evidence where piping may have been. Check the collar front and back, to find threads or thread holes where another collar tab may have been. If so, it could be period done, or post war. Sometimes, some parts of the shirt are original, but not all. Anything is possible. Many of these tests don't actually prove originality, but may shed light on the shirt's history.

[John Huff]

MR HUFF - You can call it boulderdash all you want, but I was merely explaining what the SA uniform regulations were. Just because YOU don't understand them doesn't mean they weren't adhered to, at least generally. The reason so many SA uniforms are incorrect is because people who piece them together don't take the time to research them properly. If you again read my post I DID say that there were periods where regulations overlapped. However, that doesn't explain why an officer wouldn't wear officers tabs. I gave the guy every uniform regulation that is pertinent to his inquiry. How much information have you provided? That would be zero.

My apologies if I came across too harsh. My point was, if these items came from a veteran source, untouched for 60 years, then they are correct regardless of what the ever evolving regulations state. As you state...regulations were adhered to "generally". Period pictures...even of wehrmacht uniforms...show that regulations were widely disregarded.

[John Huff]

Also it's important to remember that, for the most part, SA members were unpaid volunteers who served part time only. They were motivated to follow uniform regulations but in many cases (as seen in period photos) they either misunderstood, could not afford, never received updated regulations, or for whatever reason did not exactly conform to regulations.
Erich

I couldn't agree more....

[FrankS]

Here are some detail shots of the relevant areas.

First the tabs. They are only tacked on with a few crude stitches. But there is lots more thread underneath the collar. Like the tabs were removed several times and tacked back on.
On the edge of the collar are in some spots remains of thread - probably from where the collar piping was formerly attached.
I couldn't find any remains of piping around the tabs.