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**ErichS** · 03-18-2008, 10:23 AM

I think that the 2nd pattern BOs were very important to the Party and not inferior to the first pattern IMO. To get a 1st pattern you had to be at the event or just support it and not have actually been at the Putsch. You could have just been at a location standing guard not been in harms way.
To get the 2nd pattern you had to have served prison time or have been badly wounded or killed in the cause of the Party. The families of the Putsch dead were awarded the 2nd pattern BO. JMO

**Panzer Rob** · 03-18-2008, 11:03 AM

Originally posted by münster View Post

It ha been confusing Mike

It is hard to determine a value for these with so many factors, unlike RKs.

Value is subjective. What one person might consider the bargain of a lifetime, the next guy might look at as highway robbery.

That said, Blood Orders have always demanded a premium, and rightfully so. They are truly rare; less than 4500 total awarded, with just roughly 1500 of those being first patterns. They’ve never been cheap, and I think you would be hard pressed to find an original cased example today for under $10,000. Hell, Weitze has a beautiful example of a un-cased, 3 digit issue number first pattern Blood Order with its original button hole ribbon for 7.500 EURO (roughly $12,000 US). If the exchange rate were better I’d be all over that.

Originally posted by ErichS View Post

I think that the 2nd pattern BOs were very important to the Party and not inferior to the first pattern IMO. To get a 1st pattern you had to be at the event or just support it and not have actually been at the Putsch. You could have just been at a location standing guard not been in harms way.
To get the 2nd pattern you had to have served prison time or have been badly wounded or killed in the cause of the Party. The families of the Putsch dead were awarded the 2nd pattern BO. JMO

I’m not trying to turn this into 1st vs. 2nd pattern debate, but the first pattern was considered one of the most prestigious, highly coveted awards from the entire period of the 3rd Reich. It was a symbol of a individuals participation in the struggle to power on what would become one of the most holy of days in the history of the NSDAP, a day that was celebrated annually up until the very end, the 8/9 November putsch (even if it was considered a complete disaster

)

Look at the design of the order – the Feldherrnhalle, and the date 8/9 November were intended to signify the recipient’s participation in that event. Flip through a copy of Patzwall’s book and take a look at the list of recipients - It’s not like they handed it out to people standing in the streets, watching the mob pass by

When the criteria making one eligible was expanded and the second issues were awarded in the thousands, it was a slap in the face to the original recipients who participated in the putsch. It is documented that the original recipients felt a bitter resentment towards those who were bestowed with the second patterns.

This is not to say that the second patterns are not significant in their own right – they are a very rare award issued for a individual’s personal sacrifices in the name of the party. That said, there’s a prestige - a mystique - that surrounds the 1st patterns which IMHO the second patterns will never have, and a reason why they will always command more money.

Try to get someone to trade you a cased first pattern for a cased second pattern. I doubt you will find any takers unless that second pattern is named to someone very significant.

Rob

**Bill D.** · 03-18-2008, 11:16 AM

Everything is relative, of course, and we each have our own views.

When I collected Blood Orders I focused on the first pattern, for exactly the reasons summarized by Rob. A cased example that I owned, together with the recipient's Gold Party Badge is illustrated in Detlev Niemann's price guide. When I located the recipient's son and met with him, he played for me a recording of his father's Christmas message to his sons from the Rusian Front, made in 1942. He also kindly gave me a tape of it.

Now, to have a cased 1st pattern Blood Order AND a recording of the recipient, that was something, I thought !

As long as the 2nd patterns remain untraceable, I view them as decorations that should be comparable in value (to me, at least) to other scarce but unattributable political awards such as the Coburg Badge.

Just my opinion. Everybody likes different things; that's why restaurants have menus !

**münster** · 03-18-2008, 11:26 AM

I just turned to BOs in the Niemann price guide and your name jumped out at me Bill.

2nd pattern-silver 800-2600e

Add a couple hundred on with age of price guide.

**ErichS** · 03-18-2008, 11:55 AM

Over all I do agree with Rob and Bill regarding the 1st pattern BO being the award of choice. The BO in general whether the 1st or 2nd pattern is a very special and rare award to have in your collection. More rare than a RK, GPB and TK Ring but not as rare as the Coburg badge.

**Ron Weinand** · 03-18-2008, 12:23 PM

Blood Orders

One point I feel we are missing in this discussion is the fact that MANY of the BO holders IMMEDIATELY disposed of them after the war ended. Unlike the RK, the BO was NOT an award to hold or be in the possession of after the war and, IMO, became much more scarce due to destruction besides the number issued and produced.
If you all will remember, there was (and maybe still is) a tendency not to collect political awards in Europe. This, however, in my opinion, is changing today and, given the scarcity of the BO in general, will cause this medal to far out pace the value of a common RK-like an S&L, in my opinion.
So, if you can find even a 2nd issue, I would think this will be a good item to buy on today's market at the asking price. I have only found one in all the years I have been chasing TR items.
JMO,
Ron Weinand

**ErichS** · 03-18-2008, 12:32 PM

I agree 100% Ron!

**münster** · 03-18-2008, 12:36 PM

Originally posted by Ron Weinand View Post

One point I feel we are missing in this discussion is the fact that MANY of the BO holders IMMEDIATELY disposed of them after the war ended. Unlike the RK, the BO was NOT an award to hold or be in the possession of after the war and, IMO, became much more scarce due to destruction besides the number issued and produced.
If you all will remember, there was (and maybe still is) a tendency not to collect political awards in Europe. This, however, in my opinion, is changing today and, given the scarcity of the BO in general, will cause this medal to far out pace the value of a common RK-like an S&L, in my opinion.
So, if you can find even a 2nd issue, I would think this will be a good item to buy on today's market at the asking price. I have only found one in all the years I have been chasing TR items.
JMO,
Ron Weinand

Thats the chain of thought I was on today Ron trying to rationalize my raping. I think it is even worth holding onto a bit. I chase a ton of items down and NEVER has one appeared, 1st or 2nd pattern.

**ErichS** · 03-18-2008, 12:47 PM

If you come across rare pieces and pass on them you may never see them again. But this does depend on the size of your pocket book though!

**Bill D.** · 03-18-2008, 12:48 PM

I also remain optimistic that at some point the records will be found of the Office of 9 November 1923, and that those records will contain a listing of recipients of the second pattern Blood Order.

I have an idea that the records are very possibly unidentified within the holdings of the National Archives.

**ErichS** · 03-18-2008, 01:05 PM

The names have been found but nothing to match numbers with the names. I too hope the key is found.

**ErichS** · 03-18-2008, 05:09 PM

A few other high level awards that the specs were changed were the Gold Party Badge AH version and the TK Ring. Along with the BO it was up to Hitler and Himmler on who received them.

**Panzer Rob** · 03-19-2008, 12:12 PM

Originally posted by ErichS View Post

A few other high level awards that the specs were changed were the Gold Party Badge AH version and the TK Ring

I doubt Martin Bormann's incessant whining had much to do with those, though

Rob

**ErichS** · 03-19-2008, 12:27 PM

Agreed Rob!

**Scott C.** · 03-19-2008, 01:23 PM

Originally posted by Rob Johnson View Post

Value is subjective. What one person might consider the bargain of a lifetime, the next guy might look at as highway robbery.

That said, Blood Orders have always demanded a premium, and rightfully so. They are truly rare; less than 4500 total awarded, with just roughly 1500 of those being first patterns. They’ve never been cheap, and I think you would be hard pressed to find an original cased example today for under $10,000.

Rarity is subjective too. IMO, the BO is desirable to collectors for it's historical significance, and that's what drives the market price. I'm not sure it warrants the label of "truely rare." There are German awards more rare than the BO (in terms of numbers produced/awarded, and market availability) but have have a fraction of relative market value.

Great thread by the way.

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