Postcard " Hitler at Obersalzberg" ?

[max history]

There are numerous reasons why any private collector wishes to remain anonymous. You would be absolutely surprised to discover who some of the really big collectors are. Some very famous people, including a number who would definitely not benefit if their collecting interests were made common knowledge. There are some collectors where money is no object, so any amount of cash would not buy some of their things. As for obtaining a photo........
Max.

[BrianK]

Braun Haus standards- unlikely to have survived the bombing (other than a blob of twisted metal) when the bombs left just a shell of a building. That's why there is no trace of the blood flag either (although there occasionally is a rumor that somebody in Germany is hiding it- I personally don't believe that- just a gut feeling that it was totally destroyed).

I wonder how it would be scientifically possible to prove that the blood flag exists if someone came forth with it? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

[randy@treadways]

there are a large number of period photos which we can compare.
And there is also a report that it was so big, there is a seam across the lower section. We could probably find that in some period photos too.
Plus the multi-colored border that was added in the late 20's.

On the other hand, if there's a label sewn down in the corner, that says 'Blood Flag, Incorporated'.....then it might be a bit suspect

[BrianK]

Price of a "Holy Grail" item like this might produce, for the first time, a perfect fake. IMO only Jakob Grimminger could positively identify it, and he is not available.

[max history]

Price of a "Holy Grail" item like this might produce, for the first time, a perfect fake. IMO only Jakob Grimminger could positively identify it, and he is not available.

No fakes are perfect.

[John Pen.]

On the Blood Flag.
There are individuals and organizations that would covet an object like this so intensely that it would be detrimental to the owners health if his identity were revealed. No wonder it's kept secret.
Even the fact that there are rumors of it's existence in a collection probably has the wrong ears "perked up". jmho.
Jp
p.s. and I'm not referring to the usual suspect "collectors".
(the best way to take away an objects power is to "own" it.)

[Br. James]

I'm sure that's true, John, and as we've seen in just the past few years, the effort to oblitherate the Nazi past is still strong in Germany and elsewhere. For that reason alone, I could see someone with deep pockets wanting to purchase the Blood Banner just so it could be destroyed, as a symbol and also to remove any possibility that that flag could be a rallying point in the future. And for that reason, it's really amazing that a museum in Berlin could still display Hitler's desk from the New Reichschancellery and the Breker bronze statue from the Honor Court of that building!

Br. James

[oldflagswanted]

BF period photo details ...

there are a large number of period photos which we can compare.
And there is also a report that it was so big, there is a seam across
the lower section. We could probably find that in some period photos
too. ...

r@t:
Indeed you are correct, lots of unique details
like puckered seams, stains, hole & torn locations.

[randy@treadways]

Has anybody ever heard how much damage the blood flag sustained in the Burgerbrau bombing of November 8, 1939? The bomb was so powerful as to collapse the roof, it is said. And it is also said that the blood flag was there.
Apparently it wasn't blown to shreds, since it was used in that funeral for Wagner several years later.

[Br. James]

I don't recall ever reading any details of the aftermath of the bombing of the Bürgerbräukeller on the night of November 8, 1939 as regards possible damage to the Blood Banner or the loss of human life, but as you said, Randy, the banner was used for the Adolf Wagner state funeral in 1944 and probably at a number of other state funerals and events between 1939 and the Wagner funeral. Since Hitler's address to the assembled Altekampfers was the keynote of that evening's schedule, when he left suddenly after only speaking for a short period (for him!), that must have effectively ended the formal events of that evening, and Jakob Grimminger may have withdrawn the flag from the building when Hitler departed. The room would have been filled with all of the NSDAP hierarchy as Hitler's annual address on the night of November 8th was one of the highlights of the political year, and when he ended his speech after so short a time and immediately left the Bürgerbräukeller, the audience began the evening's course of drinking and back-slapping of old friends...and old enemies, too. But I don't recall ever seeing a list of persons injured in that explosion...and everyone was there. As the bomb was placed in the base of one of the support pillars holding up the roof over the main hall of the Bürgerbräukeller, that must have caused the roof to collapse, but it may not have been sufficient to kill or injure those who attended the event. Just a thought...!

Br. James

[randy@treadways]

Eight people killed (seven were Party members), 60 injured.


Interesting film footage here:
http://youtu.be/g6LwsGCpWb4

Nobody disputes that Georg Elsner planted the bomb. But there are strong indicators that he was set up to do it by Himmler. Why? Not to kill Hitler. In fact, the most likely scenario is that Hitler didn't know, but it was aimed to clear out a few 'old comrades' who stood in the way of Himmler, and provide a context to whip public support against the British by blaming them (which is exactly what happened). There's never been anything in British archives tying them or any other of the allies to Elsner. And he was awarded very 'special' treatment (relatively good) in Sachsenhausen Dauchau, where he was called 'Special Prisone Eller' (an intentional misspelling). His execution wasn't ordered until the Americans were on the doorstep. For some reason the Nazis didn't want Elsner to fall into American hands.

That Hitler left early (compared to earlier years' practice) as a complete coincidence is not true. Himmler, Goebbels and the bodyguards were with him as he left. There was bad weather coming in, and the engineer of Hitler's train had been told to pull out of the station at exactly precisely 9:31 to return to Berlin, regardless of whether everybody was on board. That order came from Hitler's military adjutant, Max Wunsche. A back up train a few minutes later could bring the rest (but everybody made it). 9:31 was way earlier than usual for this event. Hitler had to have known of the earlier train departure, and that's why he did a quick speech and left immediately.
Many of the occupants in the speeding line of cars nearing the München station heard a loud blast and turned around to look but couldn't see beyond the nearby buildings... then they quickly boarded the train. It's said that Eva Braun and her friend Herta Schneider arrived separately and were the last to climb on board as the train started moving. Eva had no way to know at the time that her father was among those injured in the explosion.

The train stopped at the Nürnberg main train station (a usual practice), and Himmler volunteered to jump off the train to drop off and pick up the usual diplomatic cables and telegram traffic. A previous stop had Augsberg only passed word that something unusual was happening. It's there in Nürnberg that Himmler heard the news of the explosion at the Burgerbraukeller with loss of life, and he got back on the train and told Hitler. Hitler's reaction was said to immediately attribute his survival to 'divine providence or something like that'. They continued on to Berlin that night.

None of these stories talk about the blood flag, although they said that it was the usual practice to have it there in the Burgerbraukeller for the annual celebration.

[Br. James]

Thanks Randy...very interesting. Was there a list published of those injured or killed in the blast?

Br. James

[randy@treadways]

Here's a list of the seven who were Party members.
The list of "Blood Martyrs" on November 8, 1939 in Munich:

Michael Wilhelm Kaiser,
Emil Karsberger,
Franz Lutz,
Leonhard Reindl,
Eugen Schachta,
Michael Schmeidl,
Wilhelm Weber.

Source:

"Ich Kämpfe" publication by NSDAP. 1943,
Chapter: Honor list of the martyrs of the movement, pag 44-45.

Interesting viewing that film footage of the funeral in the Odeonsplatz at the Feldhernnhalle.
Seven coffins.
The unfortunate person who forgot to pay their party dues didn't get any recognition at all.

Check out this photo- look where Jakob Grimmenger is standing with the Blood Flag. Right in front of the column where the bomb was hidden! He had to have left with the flag at the same time as Hitler, Goebbels and Himmler.

[Br. James]

Thanks Randy. I have that issue of "Ich Kämpfe" but had forgotten that this list was included there.

Br. James

[Geoff Walden]

Doors at the Hotel zum Türken

Ref. the discussion above ... I just returned from a trip to the Obersalzberg, where I stayed at the Hotel zum Türken. I asked Frau Scharfenberg about any steel doors on the guest rooms, and she gave me one of her famous looks, and said, "those doors were never metal doors." They are the same wooden doors that were installed when the hotel was rebuilt and refurnished in the early 1950s. They do make a loud bang when closed, if they are not closed slowly. But steel ... no.