Father and son?

[Jeff S]

Fake photos continued...

Good discussion. Here is what I know. I have also heard the "original negatives on period paper story". It may be the case for a small(very small) number of them, but not the majority. First, I have seen these photos on both artificially aged paper(to make them look like they were 60 years old), and on new bright white paper stock. So whoever is making them is intentionally aging them so they can sell them as originals. Second, I have actually met one of the gents that "modeled" in a session that I mentioned. I keep track of the fake photos I see, and recognized him. This was 6 years ago at a major show. He was German and confirmed that he was indeed in the photos I mentioned. That is why I state without doubt that there have been recent modeling sessions to create some of these photos. I have no idea which ones are "Szabo" remakes(and he has been busy, because I've seen guys with hundreds of them. He must sell them in bulk, not just out of a single suitcase! Third, just the content of the photos makes it impossible, if you have seen enough. As I mentioned earlier I have seen the same guy as a Kriegsmarine officer, with Sub-badge and DK in gold. Another photo he is a Wehrmacht RK winner. No way that happened. Even if he had changed branches(which did of course happen) he would have been the RK and DK in at least one of the photos.

Whichever way you look at it, the photos are fake. If they were original negatives, recently remade, thats fine. I have thousands of German negatives, and frequently have some printed. But I never artificially age them to try to make a quick buck!
They are fakes and being created with the intention of defrauding collectors. Nothing more and nothing less. If this Szabo guy simply wanted to provide good photos for the collecting world, why put them on 60 year old paper? <I>But if dealers are getting their hands on these photo's (remember they are printed on original old photo-paper) the prices will go up fast. So don't blame the supplier but the dealer !!</I> That just kills me. So I guess we also shouldn't blame the guys out there making fake Knights Crosses? Afterall, he is simply providing the collecting world a low cost alternative to a multi thousand dollar award. Its those dirty cheating dealers that are actually breaking the law!

[Rick Research]

Photo fakery has also spread to Soviet collecting. Despite the fact that local Veterans' Commissariats were swept clean of old reservists'/retirees' photos by the brown shopping bag full (and I have seem them, pounds and pounds of them, still in alphabetical order), and any of these portraits can be had for a couple of bucks-- NEW ones are being faked on a "variety" of papers -- all with "too good to be true" awards, phony "names" on back, and the same identical non standard verification stamp and signature/rank over decades. 1960s photos are dated 1940s, etc.

It must get very tiring mass producing crap! moremad

[Dave Danner]

The picture I posted that started this thread is one from the preview for the next Berliner Auktionshaus auction (about which another thread discussed the many museum and collector's copies being sold, as such, in that auction). Here are a couple more from the same cluster, some of which may have come from the same source.


<img src="http://www.berliner-auktionshaus.com/katalog/kat_41/picture/3039.jpg">

<img src="http://www.berliner-auktionshaus.com/katalog/kat_41/picture/3040.jpg">

<img src="http://www.berliner-auktionshaus.com/katalog/kat_41/picture/3044.jpg">

<img src="http://www.berliner-auktionshaus.com/katalog/kat_41/picture/3048.jpg">

Note what may be the same curtain background on this one as on the father and son one:

<img src="http://www.berliner-auktionshaus.com/katalog/kat_41/picture/3046.jpg">

Dave

[W. C. Stump]

ADDITIONAL INFORMATON FROM OTTO SPRONK

If you are printing and selling the same photo's over and over again for some 15 years like Szabo did, yes, they are spread in bulk. I only told the intention of Szabo is NOT to fake any photo. Just selling interesting uniform-photo's from his grandfathers estate. I don't have one anymore, but he had a small catalogue of many of his most interesting photo's all in very small print also on old photopaper. I have seen many of the photo's I bought from him for the reasonable price of some $5.00 being sold by dealers and on auctions for prices much higher. This is not to blame at Szabo ! If you are a long time around, following the shows and auctions you will recognise many Szabo photo's. Lots of his photo's are shown in recent references from publishers all over the world, also in militaria magazines, mostly credited to the collector who supplied the photo.
But I can also tell you the story of a British dealer who published a photo-book back in the sixties, showing one photo of a bunch of guys in the neutral surroundings of a forest wearing the British Freecorps tabs, just peeping out the collar of camo-jackets. All other photo's turned out to be original contemporary ones, except this staged photo. In the past there have been Knightscross holders dressing up many years after the war in their old uniforms, just to supply the many of hunderds applicants for an autographed uniform-photo. Because the collector was not satisfied with a photo in civil clothes with signature, it had to be an uniform-photo. Is this faking or what ? In the French magazine Militaria almost all showed original uniforms are on live-nowadays-models in staged photo's. We collectors love those articles ! Staged photo's are made already in 1944 when GI's were dressing up in Third Reich uniforms. American GI's could buy as souvenir in Munich in 1945 original Frieda Thiersch made Knights Cross documents with their own name filled in. What about parts-daggers etc. etc. Let us not be naive, of course when money is to be made you have to count in the possibility of fraud. Also in the field of photo collecting.
Otto Spronk

[Sebastian Bianchi]

Do you think they would go as far as getting a woman and small child in the picture?

I don't know if I would do all that for the Africa cufftitle.

Seba

[François SAEZ]

Really interesting posts

I had one serie and thought thet were post war reprints.
Personally, I will follow Akira (and others)'s opinion:"these stuffs are not exactly fakes, but just postwar prints"
UNTIL somebody shows me 2 pics of the same guy in 2 different uniforms .
I am carefully watching this thread

François

[Rick Research]

"SS NCO" in the 1st photo shown is "Afrika LW NCO" in the last one.

Are these people "Professional Third Reich Fraud Photo Models?"

PS The guy with the Krimshield is wearing his ribbon bar upside down.

[Jeff S]

photos...

Again, I agree there is a difference between someone actually taking a postwar photo, and someone simply printing wartime taken negatives. But in my book that still makes them fakes. Many of these photos are multiple generations. Meaning someone made one from the negative, then someone made another from the print, and that print was copied. Over and over again. You can see this in the loss of clairty of many of them.
<P> <P> So when does this photo become a fake? Is it any different then someone using an original badge to make a mold, then makes fake badges from that mold? How is it different. They are both second, third, fourth, etc... generation items.
<P> <P> I'll dig through my photos and see if I can find some of the same guys in different uniforms.

[Phil_C]

Interesting thread,

Is anyone able to post the reverse of some of these photos, so that we cann see the style of the back and what makers are on the back if any, also a direct comparison of the same guy in different uiforms would be great.

Regards

Rick

[François SAEZ]

Yup, can somebody put the 2 pics of the same guys in 2 different uniforms

Thanks
François

[Phil_C]

Hi,

I thought that the piller looked a bit familiar follow this link and click on documents & photos, have a look at the two brothers, Panzer and Kriegsmarine. Is this photo out of the same group as the pillar in the back ground looks familiar.

website

Regards

Rick

[François SAEZ]

Rick,
What about "SS NURNBERG VT PHOTOGRAPH"?.

[Phil_C]

Well spotted Fracois,

I didn't notice that one, it looks like the pillar in the pazer and kriegsmarine one, exept it is taken closer.

rick

[François SAEZ]

I believe that we can go an other way
2 guys with RK are shown above + another one on the link (germandagger.com)given by Akira.
Question: are we able to give their name, at least for one?

François

[Denis]

François has a brilliant idea !
According to my info, the first KC holder (i.e. the Oberfeldwebel) is Albert Müller, the enlisted man is Lorenz Schmied (RK 29/11/44 as Ogfr. in 8/Geb.Jäg.Rgt. 100).
For Müller, the date given for the award of his RK is 04/10/44 as Stabsgefreiter in 1/Fus. Rgt. 22. What I find strange is that the photo shows him as Ofw while he was still a Stbgfr in october 1944 : either the photo is a late war one or he was appointed senior NCO very rapidly.
Regards
Denis