Otto Skorzeny Knights Cross Papers ++

[Eric JB]

Here's the Schmundt sig on the Skorzeny doc



Now compare it to these. You don't need to be a hand writing expert to see that the letters mun have been written upside down compared to the examples below.

Simon,

Thank you for your extra input and research, this thread gets better and better.

Now I really like to know what the by Gregory Koepp mentioned real experts have to say on these documents.

yours friendly

Eric-Jan

[Gregory Koepp]

Now on this guys Grouping with Doc's, I am not heading over today, so will go tomorrow now and photo all I can for this site to see.

Now on this Group I could careless what it is, who owns it (besides he's my friend) and if it's real or not. Not my cup of tea and not my decision to decide one way or the other, All I care about is getting what I have found, out for the collecting community to see. Now don't take what I'm saying as though I'm backing this stuff up, please RE-READ what I have been saying from the beginning, not mine, I know nothing about doc's, and so on?

I due know some of the signatures were stamps I think? but didn't look that close. I talked to the owner and he said I could photo what I want and you guys should be happy that I can bring this stuff forward for your own inspection and comments, and that's what I will due. I will address if it's good/bad or super bad to the owner of this Grouping after it is shown, then he can do what he will?

So if I am doing anything wrong here by asking for real information to be posted and not "I think" then I will stop now and not post anything else from this grouping, but I really think it should be looked at by all.

I have some other photos of his Uniform, but not good ones, so will get better ones tomorrow. I will also photo all I can if you guys want to look at it, and then you guys can compare with other known things all you want and I will pass on the information to the owner.

Please know I'm not knowable on this subject, (as stated) so I can't say one way or the other, really I'll I care about is if it's good or bad so I can pass on the information to the owner so he can do as he wants.

Thanks, and DON'T take this personal if I ask for what is now being posted.

thanks Greg koepp

[Gregory Koepp]

a postwar Spanish driver's licence doesn't make questionable wartime material original.

yours friendly

Eric-Jan
---------------------------------------

Eric-Jan, I never said what your saying above?? please re-read above......

I know he has in the Documents a Licence for being an Engineer (?) and it's not from Spain or post war it is a pre-war Doc, from Austria or some weird Country where he earned it, I will take photos as I said.

Eric-Jan, please know I am not wanting to go back and forth with you, so if I offended you OR anyone else by posting what I did (???) I didn't want too. So let's not get this going the wrong way, I just found this stuff and want to share it.

thanks

greg koepp

[Simon O.]

As far as the discussion goes who owns these docs is irrelevant, what 'names' have seen them is irrelevant. Only the items themselves are relevant and they don't need a hands on inspection as there's more than enough information in a scan or picture for anyone with a pair of eyes to see the problems. The evidence does all the talking necessary.

[byterock]

This same lot (or nearly identical) was for sale many years ago (late 70s me thinks) in a coin/medal magazine. Nobody bought as it was well known in the community then that anything with his name on it was suspect.

Then the story was they had to sell them to get them out of of Spain as Franco had just died and now owning them was unlawful.

I do not think 30 more years improved it any??

[Gregory Koepp]

I have a question, who is the foremost Document Expert who He can mail these too? If there are many please e-mail who my friend could mail them too for a hands on inspection? I haven't asked my friend yet if he would send them out but I'm sure he would have no problems at all.

you can e-mail anything using my e-mail address below my name.

thanks,

greg koepp

[Simon O.]

Greg

They don't need a hands on inspection, for paper that's only necessary if you want to inspect the paper and ageing and the issues here are with the content, not the paper. Better photos would be ok but really the simple and easy to see differences in the signature is enough for anyone, document collector or otherwise, to work out.

It'd be worth however, having a few signature collectors look at it.

[Gregory Koepp]

Thanks, anyone you would recommend?

I will be heading over today at 12:00 so I should have allot of photos?

greg koepp

[Biber]

Now compare it to these. You don't need to be a hand writing expert to see that the letters mun have been written upside down compared to the examples below.

As I understand it, one of the ways forgers practice/perfect signatures is to copy them upside down. I suppose it would be easy to screw up if not paying attention to what you are doing, especially when starting out.

B

[Napalm]

Thanks, anyone you would recommend?

I will be heading over today at 12:00 so I should have allot of photos?

greg koepp

Not a lot but Clear and upclose and in good lighting conditions...

[WenRan]

Hello,

Skorzeny related collectables pop-up from time to time, but his history in mind, I very much doubt the originality of most of them.

There is a museum in the USA that has the cigaretcase that A.Hitler gave to Otto Skorzeny after his succesful operation to liberate B.Mussolini.
That cigaretcase was given by O.Skorzeny himself to an US army interpretator while he was in US custody.

Skorzeny himself escaped prison in 1948 and fled to Spain.
He was put on trial for warcrimes in Dachau.
I'am sure all his uniforms awards & documents were seizured if they weren't "liberated" by the GI's that captured his HQ in May 1945.

Cheers,
Peter

West point Museum New York

[Hank C.]

...edit...

So if I am doing anything wrong here by asking for real information to be posted and not "I think" then I will stop now and not post anything else from this grouping, but I really think it should be looked at by all.

...edit...

Greg,
At least 3 very knowledgable people in this thread have said "I think these are questionable due to...." and then stated very concrete reasons why they "think", and given comparisons as back-up.

Even if you get half of the people on the forum to nominate "The #1 expert on documents", you'll never get full agreement.

As it stands, they are - at the very least - HIGHLY questionable.

I applaud your determination to find the truth about them, and I know you're just passing info on what may be very desirable items.

But I think by this point in the thread, it's pretty obvious that nearly any serious collector would be hard pressed to spend any money on these, without iron-clad provenance.

I by no means have the knowledge that others here have, but I know they have their "poop in a group" and respect the opinions they've given so far.

I am looking forward to better pictures & closeups, but I don't think (my opinion, could be wrong, as many times before) that extra pics will save this grouping.

All the best,
Hank

[Gregory Koepp]

you know I respect what has been said here but I'm glad I rock the boat sometimes.... well I went over and have a lot of photos and will post tomorrow sometime. I was thinking, I have copies of Benders paper letters and then it hit me, LOOK IN BENDERS BOOK on Otto Skorzeny Memoirs!

I don't know why I didn't do it in the first place, those same Doc's I have posted so far are the exact same ones in the book right down to the dot's/signatures and the light stamp on the Knight s Cross doc. The stamp is light on the Doc and has been darkened on the Book photo. But I have a photo of it the best I could.

So I just want to say even if most or all the people say something is wrong, keep looking and don't believe all your told or read, I never do on this site or others all the time....

This grouping is from Otto Skorzeny, and came from the same man who provided photos and reference, the German Cross is the same one in the book, same to the last detail on paper and on the Cross. So for those who will not believe something can be found, even if it's a weird item or collection like this, you keep thinking it can't be found or done!

I will post all the photos, and I have allot, also my friend has as I stated his SS Green Open Collar Uniform, +++++ as above stated.

So lets see what's to be said once they are posted???


Thanks greg koepp

[Simon O.]

I look forward to seeing further photos.

Of course, if these have been published in a book they must be real right?



I understand Hugh Page Taylor was involved with the book, i'd like to hear his take on these.

[max history]

Interesting reading.
I have no doubt that the Schmundt signature is a forgery. It is a technically poorly executed copy where the characteristics of the lettering and flow immediately indicate that it was not naturally written by a hand without prior thought. Apart from the obvious discrepancies compared to a genuine Schmundt signature, Schmundt's authentic handwriting and signature shows a marked lean to the left, more obvious in the upright characters. In this example, the forger has attempted to lean the characters towards the left, but does not succeed in going far enough. This is a well known characteristic of a forger's hand, indicating a nervousness in going too far. The genuine Schmundt signature has breaks in the flow of the pen; the forgery does not. The bottom loops of his letters are sharp; in the forgery they are rounded. There are a number of other reasons why I can see it is a fake, including the composition of the actual document, but I believe that enough reasons have been provided.
Max.