Otto Skorzeny Knights Cross Papers ++

[peter u]

Hello,

Skorzeny related collectables pop-up from time to time, but his history in mind, I very much doubt the originality of most of them.

There is a museum in the USA that has the cigaretcase that A.Hitler gave to Otto Skorzeny after his succesful operation to liberate B.Mussolini.
That cigaretcase was given by O.Skorzeny himself to an US army interpretator while he was in US custody.

Skorzeny himself escaped prison in 1948 and fled to Spain.
He was put on trial for warcrimes in Dachau.
I'am sure all his uniforms awards & documents were seizured if they weren't "liberated" by the GI's that captured his HQ in May 1945.

Cheers,
Peter

[Gregory Koepp]

Well here is one item that came with the collection, it was given to Otto for getting Mussolini off the Mountain top by the Bund, and it's not in any Museum or lost to time?

I'm not an expert on Otto or other things but I due know the Documents have been looked at by Rodger Bender and other collectors with back up Documents, so??

greg koepp

[Gregory Koepp]

top.

greg koepp

[Daniele C]

i know for sure that the documents of Otto skorzeny shown here like most of the things that come up from time to time are not originals.I wish i could say WHY i know that but for now i cant.

[Gregory Koepp]

Typical answer, I think?? but???

look I will see if I can photo all he has and so on, then you want-to-be experts can shoot in... also I would like if and when I can you have reasons why and not "I think".

thanks greg koepp

[peter u]

Hi Greg,

That statue is one of those objects you see pop-up from time to time, just like watches, goblets, silver plates,....etc etc all engraved to Skorzeny or one of the teammembers involved in that rescue operation.
But where is the evidence that they are the real deal?
....
Imo they are just what they are: statues, watches, silverplates and other souvenir gifts with an engraving.


Those documents aren't original imo because:
- The signature isn't correct.
- The stamp is missing on the prelim.
- The abbreviation of his rank is wrong.
Just small anomalies?
- Not in my opinion; to many red-flags.
In the past I have collected RK documents but on these I would pass always, no-matter who gave their thumbs up.

With militaria related collectables it is always:
- Buy the item not the story.
With Skorzeny related objects this is even more important.
Ofcourse this is just the humble opinion of Peter U on Otto Skorzeny collectables.

Cheers,
Peter

[peter u]

hello Gregory

It is not up to me or any other collector/forummember to proof those Skorzeny collectables fake.
It is up to the owner to proof their originality, comparing them with original RK & DKiG award certificates from the same periode for example.
Are there periode pictures of that statue?
- Was there a picture taken with Skorzeny and that statue?
Came it from a GI that looted Skorzeny's HQ or home and do you have evidence for that fact.
....etc, etc.
Just the humble opinion of a would be expert that spends thousands of euros on militaria collectables (I specialize in personalized militaria and not only WW2 periode).

P

[Gregory Koepp]

Hey as I said I'm not a collector of paper or things as I said above BUT I will do as I said and post if I can, also the KC Doc has the stamp, under the flash.

so just because someone might have a true set of items on some highly respected and known person doesn't mean that they are fake unless they have been really inspected by those who know. Right?

so let's see.

I think he won't mind if I get what we need??

greg koepp

[Daniele C]

Hi Greg!
Of course i dint mean it in an offensive way!
My post is not based in a "knowledge" of stamps and signatures as im not expert but in another fact that i cant say for now.
I hope you understand...
The experts are others in this sector and they re givin you the right answers about signatures/stamps etc!
cheers

Daniele

[Gregory Koepp]

hey I'm not taking it the wrong way, I know posts are coming and were before I posted. But I can say I hope it's good for my good friends sake, and I know it's been seen by a few high end collectors. so all I can say is I trust what he has, and he likes what he has too.

hope I will be able to get what he has out for all to see, and hopefully enjoy! OR???

greg koepp

[peter u]

Hi Greg,

Don't get me wrong, I have no cock in this fight.

- I'am not the owner of Skorzeny collectables.
- I'am not a seller of Skorzeny collectables.
- I'am not even a potential candidate to buy one of those objects.

You just posted it on a public debatforum and I gave my opinion with some factual evidence on there originality or better the lack of and that is all that happend, nothing more nothing less.
And the readers of this forum are adults and they can make up their own mind about these objects.

Cheers,
Peter

[Simon O.]

Guys

Please try and avoid the 'i think' without a reasoned argument or the 'well X says it's good\bad' without backing it up with why X thinks that.

With the RK doc, compare the Schmundt sig with known originals.


For the DK doc i'd like to show you this, and i'd invite anyone interested to trawl their own prelim DK docs and the many examples to be seen in various books and compare the stamp with this one.

Here is the Skorzeny stamp. Look at where the wingtips end, on the left it's in line with the k on the right it's just slightly below the first e.


Now a random selection of prelim DK stamps from 43 and 44

note that the wingtip on the left ends at the r and on the right just below the second e.

[JUNGCO]

Just to add a little more mix here. About ten years ago, when eBay was allowing documents and Soldbücher, there was a company that was selling copies of original RK documents that had been copied from known originals. Bottom line was that except for looping and feeling the copy, you could not tell it wasn't original. Even the gold lettering looked great.
Jeff

[Eric JB]

then you want-to-be experts can shoot in...

Gregory,

I will never call myself or will say that I am an expert !!!, but I don't like your sound in this thread, you just show here your behaviour when the replies aren't that positive.

The stamp on the DKiG document has the same quality as the so often seen fake stamp "Oberkommando der Wehrmacht", so to say a wrong / fake stamp is used.

Different looking signature.

Rank abbreviation is wrong.

As for the item with the eagle.....after more than 60 years one would think that the engraving would have a nice darker patina too !, more the color of the item itself.
This engraving doesn't look that old at all.

And a postwar Spanish driver's licence doesn't make questionable wartime material original.

yours friendly

Eric-Jan

[Simon O.]

Here's the Schmundt sig on the Skorzeny doc



Now compare it to these. You don't need to be a hand writing expert to see that the letters mun have been written upside down compared to the examples below.