super LAH panzer grouping

[Simon O.]

...definately uber pinnacle stuff for panzer guys....
mike

I'd disagree with you there Mike. It's a pretty standard panzer grouping as far that goes, an EK2, WB and PAB doc plus some other paperwork. It shouldn't be any rarer than any other panzer regiment either, the difference is in the popularity of the LSSAH and thus it's monetary value, not in it's rarity.

I'd swap you five groups like that for a similar one to Pz.abt.40 or pz.abt.211 any day

[Mike Pinkus]

Simon
i agree with you about rarity, on the smaller unique panzer battalions...i would have to disagree with you as to desireability though. what i meant by uber pinnacle ...is the following...when someone thinks tanks and panzer groups one thinks SS panzer as being most desireable and i would say that LAH panzer is the top of that heap....as you know rarity is not always the most telling feature...i have some rarer docs probably in my collection but the totalness of this group not just the 3 award docs but the whole family that fleshes out the group makes it very desireable... i have already had offers from collectors for this group...for example i have put docs from the ferdinand (elephant) battalions that are far rarer without the "buzz" of these...so i stand by my uber pinnacle comment...the only other units i could say compares would be an SS tiger battalion grouping...probably the 101 battalion in particular with d-day era dated docs...and you just dont see those because collectors dont give em up...the only reason i got this is it just came out of the family woodwork and i am the first collector to get my hands on it...
my .02
mike

ps...find me 5 groups like this and ill find your pz abt 40 group for you

I'd disagree with you there Mike. It's a pretty standard panzer grouping as far that goes, an EK2, WB and PAB doc plus some other paperwork. It shouldn't be any rarer than any other panzer regiment either, the difference is in the popularity of the LSSAH and thus it's monetary value, not in it's rarity.

I'd swap you five groups like that for a similar one to Pz.abt.40 or pz.abt.211 any day

[Simon O.]

ps...find me 5 groups like this and ill find your pz abt 40 group for you

needle, meet a field of haystacks.

I've never even seen a pz.abt.40 PAB doc though they do exist and only one pz.abt.211 in another collection and he wasn't budging.

It's not as if LAH's pz rgt or the division itself was 'the best' or 'most decorated' the Germans had. DR takes the prize for most higher awards with the 4 Pz.Div. close behind iirc. How much attention would a panzer regiment 35 group like this get? So 'pinnacle' is grounded in myth, mystique and popular visibility.

I'm not having a go, it is a lovely group to a famous unit for famous actions but it's worth above other units is down to common perception and general popularity.

You see why i keep away from SS, way too 'desirable' if you get my drift. And i'm equally thankful there were no SS panzers in Finland or Norway or things would get pretty expensive

[Simon O.]

On another note, i see that he was in Rudolf von Ribbentrop's kompanie and that Ribbentrop got his EKI just two days before your guy

Worth doing some extra research i reckon.

[Mike Pinkus]

i agree with you...and the pinnacle comment was meant for overall desireability vs rarity...that said,,,at the SOS i saw at least 3 dozen SS helmets for sale...and an associate of mine bought one for 5k....of course all of these were not perfect but the perceived value of SS helmets is no where near what the availabiity vs price should be...i paid less than that for this group...much less in fact.... but there was only 1 SS LAH panzer grouping available at the show that i am aware of...
...
that said i did not see any pz 40 abt groups for sale

that said i did see 1 other silver panzer doc group available (20th panzer div)...but the sigs and the stamps were faded...i think the overall theme is that silver panzer docs are like hens teeth anyways and SS silver panzer docs are a magnitude rarer and too find one to one of the named...ie..1st, 2nd or 3rd ss panzer divisions is another magnitude beyond that imo....



this seems to be the common discussion of rarity vs desireability...there are many things that are rare that do not have the panache of other items...many rare items do not hold with the pricing of less rare but more desireable items...




ps...i thought ribbontrop was 7th companie

[Greg]

...the only other units i could say compares would be an SS tiger battalion grouping...probably the 101 battalion in particular with d-day era dated docs...
mike

Or maybe the 501st Tiger battalion with Ardennes dated documents.

I would also call this grouping über pinnacle for me, but it all depends on what you want and what you collect. Lots of people would be crawling all over themselves for that Dietrich signed EK document. Maybe Georg Schönberger isn't as famous a commander for SS-PzRegt 1 for collectors today as Peiper would have been, but still a killer grouping, to me!

Best,
Greg

[Hank C.]

more Gunter docs...no idea what these are

Let's see,
Post #25: REcord of baptism (top) and Registration of domicile (reporting to local authorities he was living at X address)

Post #26: Frontkampfer Kreuz (obvious) and Proof of Marriage

Post #27:Looks like a receipt (or confirmation) for some papers sent...can't quite tell

Can't quite help out on the Feldpost, little too small/blurry for me...

best
Hank

[Mike930]

Excellent finds Mike! I wish that I understood German. Aside from a dozen or so words I'm lost.

Mike

[markus]

I would like to object a little here.

While LAH Pz.-Gren. & Inf., AA, etc. docs are faily common and easy to get paying an SS-premium, Pz-Rgt 1 docs are damn rare...I collect LAH docs for some time now and I have not come around too much in all those years. I only have 1 group in fact...

Again, congratulations!

[Mike Pinkus]

after translation help from my european friends.....the brother was put on trial for killing a russian prisoner at a sub camp of auschwitz...camp name was fürstengrube....below is some information i cut and pasted from article i found....



The Fürstengrube subcamp was organized in the summer of 1943 at the Fürstengrube hard coal mine in the town of Wesola (Wessolla) near Myslowic (Myslowitz), approximately 30 kilometers (18.5 miles) from Auschwitz. The mine, which IG Farbenindustrie AG acquired in February 1941, was to supply hard coal for the IG Farben factory being built in Auschwitz. Besides the old Fürstengrube mine, called the Altanlage, a new mine (Fürstengrube-Neuanlage) had been designed and construction had begun; it was to provide for greater coal output in the future. Coal production at the new mine was anticipated to start in late 1943, so construction was treated as very urgent; however, that plan proved to be unfeasible.

In September, November, and December 1944, the Polish and Russian prisoners were moved to the Flossenbürg, Buchenwald, and Mauthausen concentration camps. As of January 17, 1945, 1,283 prisoners, chiefly Jews, remained in the subcamp. On January 19, having burnt the camp's records, the SS led approximately 1,000 prisoners out of the camp, headed for Gliwice (Gleiwitz) via Mikolow. Severe cold and icy roads made the march difficult, and SS men killed anyone who fell out. On the evening of January 20, 1945, the Fürstengrube prisoners reached the Gleiwitz II subcamp, where they joined prisoners from Auschwitz III-Monowitz as well as some other subcamps. The next day, January 21, the SS loaded approximately 4,000 prisoners into open railway cars bound for Mauthausen. The authorities at Mauthausen did not accept the transport, however, as the camp was overcrowded, but sent the train on to Mittelbau (Dora), where it arrived on January 28. Out of 4,000 prisoners, only about 3,500 survived the seven-day trip.
On January 27, 1945, at about 4:00 p.m., a dozen or so SS men entered the Fürstengrube subcamp and killed most of the remaining prisoners; some they shot, and some burned to death when the SS set their barracks on fire. Only the sudden arrival of Soviet troops forced the SS to flee, thus sparing a few of the prisoners. A mine employee who was present afterward reported that they buried 239 bodies. About 20 prisoners survived the massacre. One of them, former prisoner Rudolf Ehrlich, testified to these events on May 9, 1945, before the Investigation Commission for German Nazi Crimes at Auschwitz.
In a United States Military Court trial in Dachau from November 15 to December 13, 1945, Otto Moll, the first commandant of the Fürstengrube subcamp, was sentenced to death by hanging. The sentence was carried out on May 28, 1946.

[Panzer Rob]

Ouch - my eyes! Try using white text, Mike

Rob

after translation help from my european friends.....the brother was put on trial for killing a russian prisoner at a sub camp of auschwitz...camp name was Fürstengrube....below is some information i cut and pasted from article i found....

The Fürstengrube subcamp was organized in the summer of 1943 at the Fürstengrube hard coal mine in the town of Wesola (Wessolla) near Myslowic (Myslowitz), approximately 30 kilometers (18.5 miles) from Auschwitz. The mine, which IG Farbenindustrie AG acquired in February 1941, was to supply hard coal for the IG Farben factory being built in Auschwitz. Besides the old Fürstengrube mine, called the Altanlage, a new mine (Fürstengrube-Neuanlage) had been designed and construction had begun; it was to provide for greater coal output in the future. Coal production at the new mine was anticipated to start in late 1943, so construction was treated as very urgent; however, that plan proved to be unfeasible.

In September, November, and December 1944, the Polish and Russian prisoners were moved to the Flossenbürg, Buchenwald, and Mauthausen concentration camps. As of January 17, 1945, 1,283 prisoners, chiefly Jews, remained in the subcamp. On January 19, having burnt the camp's records, the SS led approximately 1,000 prisoners out of the camp, headed for Gliwice (Gleiwitz) via Mikolow. Severe cold and icy roads made the march difficult, and SS men killed anyone who fell out. On the evening of January 20, 1945, the Fürstengrube prisoners reached the Gleiwitz II subcamp, where they joined prisoners from Auschwitz III-Monowitz as well as some other subcamps. The next day, January 21, the SS loaded approximately 4,000 prisoners into open railway cars bound for Mauthausen. The authorities at Mauthausen did not accept the transport, however, as the camp was overcrowded, but sent the train on to Mittelbau (Dora), where it arrived on January 28. Out of 4,000 prisoners, only about 3,500 survived the seven-day trip.
On January 27, 1945, at about 4:00 p.m., a dozen or so SS men entered the Fürstengrube subcamp and killed most of the remaining prisoners; some they shot, and some burned to death when the SS set their barracks on fire. Only the sudden arrival of Soviet troops forced the SS to flee, thus sparing a few of the prisoners. A mine employee who was present afterward reported that they buried 239 bodies. About 20 prisoners survived the massacre. One of them, former prisoner Rudolf Ehrlich, testified to these events on May 9, 1945, before the Investigation Commission for German Nazi Crimes at Auschwitz.
In a United States Military Court trial in Dachau from November 15 to December 13, 1945, Otto Moll, the first commandant of the Fürstengrube subcamp, was sentenced to death by hanging. The sentence was carried out on May 28, 1946.

[Mike Pinkus]

thanks Rob....was in a rush...and had to hit the road...was going to look at that...appreciate the assist

[Panzer Rob]

Or maybe the 501st Tiger battalion with Ardennes dated documents.

Why don't you just post a picture, and rub even more salt in the wound, Greg ??? You lucky SOB


I think this is a great silver PAB grouping to a very famous SS Panzer unit with a documented and well-known combat history. But as far as rarity goes, I don't think I'd go as far as to say that this is a 'rare' grouping. As Simon pointed out, there are other Heer and Waffen-SS Panzer units with just as (if not more) impressive careers for which documents just did not survive in numbers greater than a few dozen - if that. I believe the LSSAH panzer documents exist in greater numbers than many collectors like to believe, but because of the popularity of the unit they don't change hands very often, and when they do it us usually done privately, behind the scenes.

I think the enthusiasm associated with this one is more due to popularity/desirability of the unit, not so much the rarity of LSSAH documents. Now, show me a s.Pz.Abt.504, 505, 506, 507 etc. Tiger unit PAB in silver doc grouping, or a GAB doc to a s.Pz.Jg.Abt.653 or 654 Ferdinand crew member and then I think the word 'rare' would be appropriate.

One thing is for sure – PAB in silver docs are not exactly common! "Rare" or not, it doesn't really matter... this is a wonderful grouping! The Dietrich signed EKII doc is just lovely and would be a killer piece on its own - but the fact that you've got these documents together, to a SS panzer crewmember is very impressive! I hope they stay that way

Great stuff.
Rob

[Simon O.]

ps...i thought ribbontrop was 7th companie

In March yes but i think he took over the 6th during the division's restructuring following Kharkov.
As you can see from the letter 'RvR' is clearly him. The 12 July is the day on which both Ribbentrop and Gross won the RKs. With even the turret number '605' you've got a wonderful point from which to dig deeper. One of the advantages of collecting to LAH is the mountain of material available on it.

http://www.das-ritterkreuz.de/index_...ord=Ribbentrop

Also, from 'Their honor was loyalty' and Lehmann's history of the LSSAH

We've also got Obersturmführer Hans Astegher from the 6 Kompanie getting his DKiG on the 28 March '43

[Mike Pinkus]

after reading about the brother's concentration camp experience above go back to post number 12 on page one and read translation of document just added.....unbelieveable...i am endeavoring to dig through and find more about the brother....

here it is again.....


The prosecutor is prosecuting Max Hans Peter Sc hmidt<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o></o>
<o> </o>
For<o></o>
<o> </o>
1. The sommer of 1944.<o></o>
With no reason killing of a man, to be precise in concentrationkamp Furstengrube, het shot a Russion prisioner on a provoked attempt to break free and the prisoner died because of the shotwounds.<o></o>
2. From 18 januar 1945 until the first days of May 1945.<o></o>
With no reasons killing a unknown number of people, because he was the responsible lagerfuhrer of the concentrationcamp-nebenlagers furstengrube, in the evacuation marsch from Schlesien and the mith of Germany to the North of Germany, prisoners who were to sick or to tired to march (walk) were shot by SS man.<o></o>