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    #16
    Attached per Moderator Durante's request, I am posting closeups of the C hook on the flight tech badge, plus additional pics of the reverse of both flightbadges. I would point out that even a large medal house like Juncker would purchase reverse hardware from outside suppliers, rather than make it in house.

    As to the issue that the tech flight badge is a "casting" I will point out the following problems with casting an enamel badge.

    It is easy to cast a military badge. Use the lost wax process, and out comes a reasonable copy of the original badge, only smaller because of the laws of physics that two objects cannot share the same space at the same time. The casting per the laws of the universe must be smaller than the original. Again, the measurements for both flight badges are identical.

    To cast an emamel badge is another story completely. Obviously, it is easy to cast an original civil pilot badge, and it will create a reasonable copy of the outlines of the original badge. The casting will not reproduce the enamel.

    To reproduce an emameled membership badge, or a NSDAP Party Badge, or the Civil Pilot badge, or any such badge, the reproducer must remove all of the enamel from the original badge, just leaving the empty cloissones or compartments that used to be filled with the enamel design.

    This removal of all the enamel would have to be done to be able to make a casting of the original membership badge.

    After the forger has the empty original badge, he can now make a casting. Now the reproducer has to fill in with the relevant glass powder the original design that is now in his casting and fire the enamel different times due to the different tempatures that each color fires at. This type of enameling is called champlevé enameling and is goes back to ancient history. A design is cut into metal and the enamel is placed into the design.

    However, the casting no matter how well done, will still be measurably smaller than the original object. There is no way around this. Maybe Brian S can explain to us how the measurements are identical to each other, if the RWS badge is a casting. I'm not even sure what RWS stands for? What do you say Brian? How could the measurement be identical, and what do the initials RWS stand for?

    It would make more sense to remove all of the enameling from the civil pilot, and then through computers and lasers and 3d printing or whatever, to re-create a brand new civil pilot die, fresh off the lath.

    Then the mesurements would be identical to the fake new die, and the original, denuded of enamel, mother master civil pilot die.

    But then, as I pointed out, after going through all that major trouble, the faker instead of forging a beautiful blue and gold civil pilot badge that sells for at least a grand, the guy creates a totally different member's enamel badge, that is unknown, and sends that out to the world with a non-standard maker's mark.

    This makes no sense whatsoever. I'm sure that my argument will go nowhere in this Forum, but I try anyway.
    Attached Files
    Last edited by Gary Symonds; 05-06-2015, 03:49 PM.

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      #17
      Gary, people simply have different opinions on some of these non-standard items. If you believe in it that's great but some others may tend to believe otherwise. Just the way it is. Thread going on right now on 800 Juncker pilot badges, similar issues.

      My comment above was RWB badge. Red/White/Blue... Not RWS...

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        #18
        Originally posted by Brian S View Post
        Gary, people simply have different opinions on some of these non-standard items. If you believe in it that's great but some others may tend to believe otherwise. Just the way it is. Thread going on right now on 800 Juncker pilot badges, similar issues.

        My comment above was RWB badge. Red/White/Blue... Not RWS...
        Brian, thanks for the reply.

        My major concern in the 6 years of being on the WAF, is the fact that if any item comes up that does not fit into what is the "accepted" collector "norm" it is almost always damned as a repro, even if there is evidence to the contrary.

        I can only assert the evidence that I see for an original. Most of the time, as here, it goes nowhere.

        Thanks for clearing up the initials. I thought it was something more than Red, White and Blue.

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          #19
          Gary if you believe in it, put it away for a while with your other good stuff and come back to it in a year or so and see how it goes. You may change your mind or other evidence may come up to support your current belief.

          Comment


            #20
            Originally posted by Gary Symonds View Post
            My major concern in the 6 years of being on the WAF, is the fact that if any item comes up that does not fit into what is the "accepted" collector "norm" it is almost always damned as a repro, even if there is evidence to the contrary.
            Gary, that is just not true at all, here are two perfect examples of never-seen-before badges that are 100% original:

            http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...num+para+badge

            http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...hlight=juncker

            With all due respect, when you say things like this, you disparage all the good, serious collectors that grace WAF. You ask for opinions about your badge, and say you are "here to learn", so why disparage our members and our forum with comments like "I'm sure that my argument will go nowhere in this Forum, but I try anyway" or "I can only assert the evidence that I see for an original. Most of the time, as here, it goes nowhere."? WAF has the most experienced Luftwaffe collectors anywhere on the internet, but don't be surprised if they don't feel like joining your discussion after comments like this.

            Tom
            If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

            New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
            [/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
            Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com

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              #21
              The badge in question is a copy of the blue one, a rather bad copy, it is cast, this is very obvious ( that's why it's a copy ) ..
              Other details are lacking the Juncker quality, we all have noticed these things and told you that, they are no twins, one is a quality badge, the other a fantasy badge with issues IMO.
              Loads of these bright colored badges are created in Eastern Europe countries and luckily their quality is worse than the German quality.
              Fakes show pitting, round edges, strange hardware, no finishing touch done by hand etc..
              There's only one Juncker and that's a Juncker and all are different, but yet they all look the same.
              The colored one is definitely no Juncker ..

              Jos.

              Comment


                #22
                Just a few comments....

                I believe all Imperial aviation Juncker badges with the serif "J" are considered fake as well.

                I think with any badge like this (one off/unique), the onus to prove originality will fall on the owner. The task for proving the originality of this badge will be more difficult due to the serif J and the overall quality of the piece as compared to other early Juncker pieces.

                Gary B
                ANA LM #1201868, OMSA LM #60, OVMS LM #8348

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                  #23
                  s bI

                  Guys I meant no insult, I will cease and end the thread, Thank you for your replies

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