Civl Enameled Flight Badge

[Gary Symonds]

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[Gary Symonds]

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[Gary Symonds]

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[Gary Symonds]

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[Gary Symonds]

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[Gary Symonds]

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[Gary Symonds]

Guys, in November 2010, I posted a picture of a Flight Technician Badge on the Luft Forum that I had just purchased at a local show.

At the time I explained that it was my opinion that this badge was made by Juncker and was identical to the Civil Pilot Badge.

I explained that in a moment of madness I had sold my Civil Pilot Badge, but was certain that it was from the same die.

I have purchased a Civil Pilot Badge on the Estand from fellow member Albert.

I have made measurements with a caliper, and both bodies of the wing, are identical.

Contrary to the opinion in 2010 that the flight tech badge was a "casting," it is not. It is from the same die as the Civil Pilot Badge.

In my 2010 post I claimed the reverse hardware was identical, however there are some slight differences, so I stand corrected.

The biggest outcry in 2010, was the fact that the Juncker mark on the Flight Tech badge, had the letter "J" with a horizontal serif on the top. The collector opinion being that Juncker never utilized a "J" with a top serif.

Why a reproducer would somehow make a perfect fake die of the Civil Pilot Badge, and decide to change the Blue and Gold enamel to the Red, White and Black of the German National Colors, and fake a badge that nobody had ever seen before makes no sense. If they could have made a perfect fake die of the Civil Pilot Badge, a true rarity and of high value, why make a different badge, and then to top it off use a "suspect" maker mark?

In my opinion, Juncker of Berlin made both of these badges and the Flight Tech Badge is an original.

Here is the 2010 thread, which incorporated pictures from Andre Huskens 2010 Katalog of the flight tech badge. In addition, there are more pictures of different parts of the flight tech badge that I did not repeat in this present thread.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...il+pilot+badge

[Sebastien T]

Hello Gary,

Nice civil pilot badge but sorry to say the other one is not a juncker original product. On the Marker mark, not only the ''J'' is wrong the complete MM is a fake stamp. Regarding the badge, The hinge is not juncker, the hook is not juncker, the pin is not juncker, the front compare to the civil pilot have no fine line but more uneven large lines. The enamel filling at the swastica have a funny look. The edges have trace of casting as well. Overall the texture of the metal is not what I would expect. There is few of them at some show and they look nice but I would not add any in my collection. If they can fake almost at perfection a J1 pilot, they can easily fake this one IMO.

Seb

[Jos L C]

Agree, the black,white & red one isn't a good juncker product.
If original, it should look the same as the blue one in all detail, regardless the colors.

Jos.

[Gary Symonds]

Agree, the black,white & red one isn't a good juncker product.
If original, it should look the same as the blue one in all detail, regardless the colors.

Jos.

Jos, it is the same die.

Please help me to understand where the flight tech badge "details"differs from the blue civil pilot. How about some facts?

As to the reverse hardware, all I can say is that Juncker made mainly military badges. I'm sure that they must have made some civil badges, just none comes to mind. If these were Luftwaffe Pilot Badges, with this hardware, that would pose a problem.

These are not military badges. These are civil badges. I think it is apples and oranges.

In any case, where is the historical evidence that such a major medals maker such as Juncker had only one maker die?

Jos, as Moderator, Please explain if the flight tech badge is made from the same die, and the micrometer measurements match, and as shown in my pictures that the wings are line for line identical, save for heavy wear on the flight tech, why this is not a Juncker product?

Or better yet, why is this a reproduction?

I am here to learn.

Please help me out. I'm a civil/political collector, not a military collector!

[Thomas Durante]

Hi Gary,

Can you post close up pics of the catch from the White & Red one?

Even without seeing that though, I tend to agree with Seb and Jos that its a reproduction. As you point out, both should be made from the same die if both were original, so it stands to reason they should be identical except for the colors. But simply look at the quality of the enamel work of the Red and White one, it is of much lower quality than the Blue one. Also the maker mark that has been mentioned. Juncker made all sorts of Luftwaffe and Heer and Kriegsmarine badges, there is no shortage of them. So we know exactly what stamps Juncker used on their badges and the one on your badges is not an original maker mark.

When you argue that Juncker might have used more than 1 die, or different maker mark that we haven't seen before or why the hardware is different than all other Juncker products; you are standing on very shaky ground. Ofcourse none of us knows everything or has seen everything in our hobby, but when you have several red flags add up on a single product, then there is something wrong with the badge IMO.

Tom

[Brian S]

Look at the lines of your post 3 of the two badges. Clearly the RWB badge is a cast copy. Original badge has neat straight clean lines. RWB badge lines thickness vary and reverse edges give a soft look. Same die yes in terms the cast badge is cast from a badge so yes the die is the same in that regard only.

[Gary Symonds]

Flat bottom, round top needles.

[Gary Symonds]

C Hook for flight tech badge.

[Gary Symonds]

C Hook for Civil Pilot.