Re: Civil flight Badge

[Winston]

Maybe in your next break you reread the first line in Huesken....your "Flight Tech badge" is a membership badge like a party pin or any other organisation´s "tinnie".....the other badges you put in line with it are indeed qualification badges

[Gary Symonds]

Maybe in your next break you reread the first line in Huesken....your "Flight Tech badge" is a membership badge like a party pin or any other organisation´s "tinnie".....the other badges you put in line with it are indeed qualification badges

What is your evidence that it is not a "qualification badge", for members of this trade?

[Winston]

Based on the fact that it is a sign of membership in this association it cannot be the same as a qualification badge.A qualification badge is for passing a certain exam.Maybe you get my point

[mmiller]

How this radio operator badge could have "less enamel", since there is none whatsoever and never had any enamel to begin with, is a puzzling statement.

My statement "less enamel", does not refer to a lesser amount, as in a hypothetical 75% is less than 100%. My meaning of "less enamel" means without enamel.

How do you explain the makermark 'J'. All my Juncker badges have a font where the 'J', is LESS the top arm. Get it? WITHOUT the top arm. Get it!

[Tim Calvert]

Nothing about the maker's mark is correct.

I have a civil pilot's badge, however it is packed away and out of reach so can't take photos unfort.

The hardware on the back of mine does not match yours, so at best it could be an added maker's mark (which is also in a different spot).

Are you sure that badge is not cast?

[Gary Symonds]

Winston and mmiller:
I do appreciate your feedback and its legitimate. I can only make the following observations about the flight badge. I owned a blue civil pilot badge and there is not the slightest doubt that the die and the fittings on both the civil pilot and the flight tech badge are identical. Not virtually identical, they are the same. The Juncker mark on the civil pilot is placed on the body of the gilted reverse at a different position and is a different die. Why the "J" on the flight badge may be different, I can only attribute to the fact that Juncker certainly had more than one die for its maker mark. This is an original period badge made by Juncker.

As to the fact that a "test" of some kind would be mandated to obtain a flight "qualification" badge, I would agree that would be necessary. I can only say that if this badge were merely a membership badge granted upon signing your name and paying your dues to the flight tech's trade association, these badges would have been given in sufficient numbers that these badges would be available and other members of the WAF would have posted pictures. The fact that nobody so far has informed us that he owns one, shows how rare this enamel badge is. I am not equating rarity with value. They are not the same. But given the fact that this badge is so uncommon that Andre Husken indicated that a value could not be established, since too few examples were on the market to make such evaluation in his new book, speaks for itself.

This leads me to the conclusion that few men qualified and that very few were granted during the period in question. That would certainly explain the lack of examples in the serious collecting community.

[mmiller]

Winston and mmiller:

Are you trying to convince us that it is Pre45, or convince yourself? For someone who is demanding proof, you have yet to provide any, yourself.

Post one of your other Juncker badges that has the same wrong makermark as on this badge. Or for that matter, just show a link to any accepted badge with the same makermark. If you took the time to search this Forum, you would find those bad Juncker makermarks in the fake section. You would also find that Huskin has few kind things said about his credibility and his COAs. I am being very kind here.

I checked my 4 Juncker Pilot Observers, my 4 Juncker Pilots, my 2 Juncker Observers, my 3 Juncker RO/AGs, my 4 Juncker Luft Flaks, my 2 Juncker Paras, my Juncker Glider, my Juncker Retired Pilot, my Juncker Civil Radio Op (less enamel), my Heer Juncker Tombak and Juncker Zink Flaks, my Juncker Coastal Arty, my Juncker Bronze and Silver CCCs, and the later war Juncker Flak and Air Gunner Badges with the SW68 makermark. Guess which style 'J' they all have? Not the one as is on your piece.

Now, provide proof that the wrong 'J' on your pin/badge/award is Pre45. Please post facts to support your position, not stories about some other badge that you once had. Without proof, we cannot logically assume it was good either.

Mark

Tim - You have probably handled more Juncker Luft badges than I. I'm surprised you don't have this makermark in your collection?

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

I have to agree with Mark that I have yet to see that type of maker mark on an original Juncker badge. Juncker was extremely consistent with their maker mark throughout the entire war, from the earliest 1935 badge all the way through mid war when they switched to zinc. When they switched to zinc, they also switched to the SW68 mark, but for the most part they just left their zinc badges unmarked for the rest of the war. No original Juncker badge I have seen or handled ever had a "serif" on the "J" in my opinion.

Tom

[Tim Calvert]

Mark,

Personally, I'd call it a "fakers-mark" not a maker's mark.


Gart,

How can you be so sure that this badge has the exact die characteristics of one that you no longer have in your possesion? Sounds more like wishful thinking.

[Silver]

Hallo,

I am also very skeptical with this badge and the stamp and would not put this in my collection! Sorry!

Here are some pictures of the stamp of the civil pilot and radio operator!

Not very easy to photograph this little stamp well........but I think the difference can be seen!


KR
Thomas

[Winston]

Thats the kind of stamp I had expected to see on a Juncker product

[mmiller]

Thomas,

Textbook Juncker makermark. And you are correct. That makermark is tough to capture correctly. Good images.

Regards,
Mark

[Gary Symonds]

Gentleman:
Since all the witnesses who worked for Juncker are long dead, I cannot prove anything about this badge's different maker mark. It is what it is. You guy's are basically saying is , "if I've never seen it, it has to be a fake". As if there is no room in this hobby to learn something new. The badge's fit and finish and enameling is consistent with Third Reich standards. I foolishly sold my civil pilot badge, but I don't need it in hand to come to the opinion that the dies are identical.

If this is a repro, where are the others?
Gary

[Thomas Durante]

If this is a repro, where are the others?
Gary

Hi Gary,

You can ask the same question about your maker mark; "if it is legitimate, where are the others?"

Juncker LW badges are probably the most common besides FLL, so it is a hard sell to say your maker mark is legitimate when the thousands of originals we all have seen over the years always have the same maker mark.

Tom

[Gary Symonds]

Hi Gary,

You can ask the same question about your maker mark; "if it is legitimate, where are the others?"

Juncker LW badges are probably the most common besides FLL, so it is a hard sell to say your maker mark is legitimate when the thousands of originals we all have seen over the years always have the same maker mark.

Tom

Tom good point! Except this is not a Luftwaffe badge, it is a civil badge for a civil organization. Except for the maker mark, other than the fact that you have never seen this badge before, what is wrong with it?
Gary