Retired Pilot's Badge - Question

[90th Light]

Chris,
I think it is either S&L or Deumer, but that's just my speculation based on the one on the souvenir board. Could also be Assmann, GWL, FLL, or some of the other badge makers in Ludenscheid, but my money would be on S&L or Deumer. Your L/11 would be right for Deumer.
Best,
Leroy

P.S. I'm with you on the ball-hinge glider. Undoubtedly real, in my opinion.

Thanks Leroy,

when I get a chance later today or tomorrow I will dig my "L/11" out and arrange to get some images posted. Hopefully others may also post on this thread as well.

Will give the "Ball hinge Glider" some attention as well but not on this thread.

Appreciate your confirmation, Chris

[George L]

Chris, do you recall where you got that L/11 from? Several years ago I remember looking at one of these in the USA in zinc, if I recalled correctly.

[Steve P]

Guys, Would anyone else who has other makers of the badge (or Juncker badges) post pics of them so we may have the opportunity to view them!? It would be very much appreciated! Thank you guys.

[Winston]

Thanks Gary for your clearing up.Alu badge would be first pattern?

Again just my 2 cents....
I can read a lot of wishful thinking in the further developped thread...who should have bought all those dubious made L badges?The retired servicemen who got their original badges damadged while their home was bombed by the allies?The servicemen that later decided to get a bird going with their certificate if they had originally chosen to keep their flight badges? And why is it that IF a cased badge emerges it is as far as I am aware of the 2nd pattern Juncker?Apart from the fact that prices for the zincers are totally out of proportion compared to just a case, let alone a sole 2nd pattern.



Of course,the ball hinge glider must not be forgotten on that part,always propagated by the same people.

[90th Light]

Thanks Gary for your clearing up.Alu badge would be first pattern?

Again just my 2 cents....
I can read a lot of wishful thinking in the further developped thread...who should have bought all those dubious made L badges?The retired servicemen who got their original badges damadged while their home was bombed by the allies?The servicemen that later decided to get a bird going with their certificate if they had originally chosen to keep their flight badges? And why is it that IF a cased badge emerges it is as far as I am aware of the 2nd pattern Juncker?Apart from the fact that prices for the zincers are totally out of proportion compared to just a case, let alone a sole 2nd pattern.



Of course,the ball hinge glider must not be forgotten on that part,always propagated by the same people.

What are you trying to say here Winston because it is not very clear and does not make much sense.

so let me spell it out for you;

when the Germans LW went to war, they expected there would be a few pilots who would have to retire for one reason or another based on their WW1 experience .

They did not say, "gosh this jolly old war might just drag on for a long time and we might just have to fight on two or more fronts so our pilots will not get much chance to retire. Better not make too many retired pilots badges because we will not need them. Will only give the contract to one company Juncker because at the most we will probably only have 500 retired pilots".

Now this makes no sense when by 1944 there were in fact a growing number of retired pilots because they simply could no longer could get in a plane due to a number of reasons. Of course others like Rudel just kept going and going and going. The reality was that they were anticipating a growing demand for this badge.

With respect, Chris

p.s. and if you are trying to take the piss out of my "ball hinge glider" then I would kindly ask you to refrain it was at the end of the day brought back in May 1945 by a New Zealander soldier who had been made a POW, given up his youth and health (esp. later in life) fighting in a war to free the Europe you live in today and enjoy the freedom plus standard of living that you have.

[Winston]

The awarding of the badge was stopped by order of the 12th January 1944.

I dont mind your glider,would not want in my collection though,but it is you who has to be happy with it.

Kind Regards

[Sponc]

Hello,
I confirm, there is three metal version:
-Tombak by Juncker: about 3300 dollars
-Tombak without/other MM: about 2400 dollars
-Zinc: 1600 dollars
Plus embroidered version hand and machine.

Buy Detlev Niemann book... page 785, 786 and 787, you have pics of Non MM and zinc products.
Regards Jeremy

[90th Light]

The awarding of the badge was stopped by order of the 12th January 1944.

I dont mind your glider,would not want in my collection though,but it is you who has to be happy with it.

Kind Regards

Of course Winston, you are correct.

and on the 13th of January 1944, all factories had stopped making the badge and all stock was withdrawn from the shelf and just like a reserve bank with old notes and coins they started destroying the ones that were not needed.

This was because every German glider pilot who needed one had what he needed and they did not want any purest collector getting a nasty non-period badge in his collection after the war.

Now that makes perfect sense right in the middle of the end of a war they were losing (NOT).

and please do not forget also the fact that the veteran I got it off was confused in May 1945 or just trying to impress me by getting one after the war.

or the fact that some collecter switched over for the real buntmetal Juncker that he really got for this very handy ball hinge example at the time.

then again I defend them because I work for big name militaria dealers who list them or is it that I make them with my time off at at night or in my weekends.

I tell you the sad thing in all of this Winston is that when I get this badge out, put the veteran connection to one side and do a scientific type of study on it I come up with all sorts of period manufacturers foot prints which say "RK" or "SA in the triange" Now these two companies were closely connected so my conclusion is that it was made by one of them and most likely "RK"

but then by your own admission, a piece of real history is not for your collection however I certainly value the history in mine,

Chris

p.s. please do not also over-look the fact confirmed on this very thread that Goring had lifted his restriction and broadened who could sell such a badge in November 1944 so there is a very strong possibility that more companies could then make and offer them for sale.

[D.Trooper]

Here i have a few interesting threads about the Retired pilot.
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=393375
Look at post #5 for a few different variants.

/Carl

[Winston]

Unfortunately sarcasm doesnt count as facts in my world.

[Steve P]

Here i have a few interesting threads about the Retired pilot.
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=393375
Look at post #5 for a few different variants.

/Carl

Hi Carl, As you see I saw that thread, with your excellent research mate...I was actually hoping to tease some more out in this thread as well...Thanks bud!

[Tim Calvert]

Before any more disrespect gets thrown around please remember that in the big scheme of things we are all just:

"some guy" at "some forum" with "some badge"

some of these badges were supposedly obtained by "some vet" who had "some story"

[Scott C.]

In my experience, few collectors are comfortable with this unmarked zinc, solid-swaz style badge. A handful think it's ok. I post it here for reference should something difinitive come along, pro or con (more photos available if needed).

[Leroy]

I've never seen the need for anyone to make fun of anyone else's views, or use sarcasm as a substitute for knowledge-based opinion. I also have never understood the eagerness to make light of what a veteran may say, especially when the person commenting has never met the veteran, knows nothing of the circumstances, and certainly is in no position whatsoever to judge the credibility of the encounter.

We know, as fact, that there was no ban on the private sale of LW badges at the times the Retired Pilot and Glider Pilot badges were instituted. We also know, as fact, that, regardless of such a ban coming at some point into effect, it was rescinded by November, 1944, and that a pricelist which included both badges was published for the trade in November, 1944.

Everything beyond this must be determined by badge construction. Either that construction is consistent with known techniques or it is not.

[Gary B]

Hi,

I have never had the opportunity to handle/view the Aluminum version, although a member of this forum owns one. My assumption would be that it is an early version and of the 1st pattern but I could be wrong.

As for prices the last tombak Juncker marked version (type 2, if i remeber) I am personally aware of sold for the $8000 - $9000 USD range.

These badges are reproduced almost flawlessly and one has to be extremely careful when bying one.

Gary B