Retired Pilot's Badge - Question

[Thomas Durante]

If you owned a badge making factory like S&L or Deumer then it would not have been possible to crank up in late 45, 46 & 47 to make Nazi badges because the factory would have been under British control, management and supervision. They would have seen any one who made Nazi badges at that time as a die-hard for the Werewolf resistance movement. Keep in mind also that they were not sure exactly what had happened to Hitler at that stage and were on their guard for a Nazis countermeasures against the occupation.

But Chris, it is a proven fact that S&L DID infact sell badges with swastikas after the war. These "souvenier boards" proove that without a shadow of a doubt.

Put yourself in their shoes for just a minute. The war is over and there is no big nazi government to sell all your badges to like you have done so lucratively for the past 10 years. How will you survive? Will you close up shop and try to start something new? How will you survive in the meantime?

For companies like S&L, the easiest and quickest thing to do would be to put together souvenier boards for the occupation forces. This is possibly the only revenue stream a manufacturer that specializes in awards could count on. So, when these leftover stocks ran out, do you really think they would just throw up their hands and be done with it just because it was "technically" illegal to sell them? We are not talking about just a big money making, greedy practive. We are talking about survival of workers and families!

I am fully aware of your point that it was illegal, but there are lots of things that are illegal and people still do it. Again, we are talking about survival and people in horrible situations in war (and after) will do ANYTHING they can to survive. There are countless stories of German's selling just plain silverware to GIs and telling them that they were "Hitler's personal silverware".

As the years passed and leftover badge supplies were extinquished, a greater demand for these souveniers would naturally emerge. Especially given the fact of new occupation forces, who came in near the end or right after the war and still wanted to bring something home to support their "war stories". It is human nature to want to do this, and would only add to the demand for souveniers. That demand continues to this day!!!! I also venture to say that the atmosphere in germany today regarding the swastika was just as bad as it was in the 40s and 50s and maybe even more so today. It is still illegal to produce anything with a swastika in Germany, yet Carsten Staegemeir and other German fakers are doing it right now as we speak! He is just greedy, and has no added incentive of "mere survival" as companies like S&L and Deumer had in the decade after the war. Yet he is perfectly fine with accepting the risk of being put in jail for producing his wares with a swastika.

It was still illegal for S&L to produce badges with the swastika in 1956 as opposed to 1946. I think we can all agree that S&L definately produced reproductions with the swastika in 1956, so why were they willing to break the law in 1956 and not in 1946??

Tom

[Leroy]

"But Chris, it is a proven fact that S&L DID infact sell badges with swastikas after the war. These "souvenier boards" proove that without a shadow of a doubt."


WRONG. What gives you the idea that any particular company (much less S&L out of all the choices) was selling these boards? As I have always understood it over the years, these boards were sold/bartered by the people who used to work for the companies in Ludenscheid, who made leftover stock available to these folks so they could survive. I've NEVER heard of any "S&L store" or "Assmann store", etc., etc.



"Put yourself in their shoes for just a minute. The war is over and there is no big nazi government to sell all your badges to like you have done so lucratively for the past 10 years. How will you survive? Will you close up shop and try to start something new? How will you survive in the meantime? "

SEE ABOVE


"For companies like S&L, the easiest and quickest thing to do would be to put together souvenier boards for the occupation forces. This is possibly the only revenue stream a manufacturer that specializes in awards could count on. So, when these leftover stocks ran out, do you really think they would just throw up their hands and be done with it just because it was "technically" illegal to sell them? We are not talking about just a big money making, greedy practive. We are talking about survival of workers and families!"

SEE ABOVE



"I am fully aware of your point that it was illegal, but there are lots of things that are illegal and people still do it. Again, we are talking about survival and people in horrible situations in war (and after) will do ANYTHING they can to survive. There are countless stories of German's selling just plain silverware to GIs and telling them that they were "Hitler's personal silverware". "

This wasn't illegal in the same sense as a traffic ticket today, and with the same minor consequences. This was a BIG deal and the very survival of a company depended on its compliance with the Allied authorities. Again, you are applying today's "laidback" viewpoint to an entirely different era, and it is so wrong as to almost be humorous.



"As the years passed and leftover badge supplies were extinquished, a greater demand for these souveniers would naturally emerge. Especially given the fact of new occupation forces, who came in near the end or right after the war and still wanted to bring something home to support their "war stories". It is human nature to want to do this, and would only add to the demand for souveniers. That demand continues to this day!!!! I also venture to say that the atmosphere in germany today regarding the swastika was just as bad as it was in the 40s and 50s and maybe even more so today. It is still illegal to produce anything with a swastika in Germany, yet Carsten Staegemeir and other German fakers are doing it right now as we speak! He is just greedy, and has no added incentive of "mere survival" as companies like S&L and Deumer had in the decade after the war. Yet he is perfectly fine with accepting the risk of being put in jail for producing his wares with a swastika."

Please prove to me, with facts, the serious "demand" for souvenirs in the early 1950's that would cause a serious company to risk everything. By 1957, yes, there were the beginnings of demand and it has increased ever since. Even so, try to buy a swastika cross TODAY from S&L. There is no doubt at all that S&L (which is the big "boogeyman" to everyone) made and sold swastika items
(with a "wink and a nod" from the new German governments that came to power in the mid-50's) from at least 1957 through, probably, the 80's (remember, Reagan went to Bittburg in the company of Johannes Steinhoff). Do you think it still today, with its current Chancellor Merkel, would risk it? There are exceptions in German law which allow for "antique" dealers like Weitze, Niemann, etc. There is no such exception for people like Staegemeir. If you can prove that he is making new swastika material (which should not be too difficult), you could probably find a friendly prosecutor who would go after him.



"It was still illegal for S&L to produce badges with the swastika in 1956 as opposed to 1946. I think we can all agree that S&L definately produced reproductions with the swastika in 1956, so why were they willing to break the law in 1956 and not in 1946??"


1956?--Prove it. As to the rest, SEE ABOVE

[Thomas Durante]

1956?--Prove it.

Leroy, you said it yourself that it very possibly 1955!? So you are contradicting your own post!

How are the "laid back" standards of today any different from 1946? Believe it or not, the swastika has more of an evil conotation today then it did back then right after the war! Just ask any German today, many are deathly afraid of one of their neighbors seeing their collection for fear of reprisals! And this is 2009!!!

I am thinking like a businessman would, and if there was a possible lucrative stream of income from selling souveniers to GIs after the war, some badge makers would have certainly taken the risk. It was for SURVIVAL!

Don't take my word for it, just look at the evidence. Many S&L badges in the 57 form used the EXACT SAME DIES that were used to make their wartime products. This is the case with the CCC, the Para badges, flak badges, etc. So clearly S&L didn't destroy their dies as they were instructed to and like some of the other companies like Assmann did. So there is already firm precedent of S&L not obeying the laws of the occupying forces. Don't you also find it odd that many reproductions can be found harbouring 57' type of hardware? This is likely because those reproductions were made in the 50s and 60s when that hardware was being used.

As far as my comments being humorous to you, would you rather continue this conversation without me? I do not own one of these badges and have no dog in this fight, but I do like to search for the truth. Seems to me that the only guys really fighting for this badge are the ones that own one. I can respect that, but other serious collectors have left this thread long ago because it is YOU that seem to be grasping at straws with the contention that S&L did NOT produce badges post war.

Tom

[Thomas Durante]

Leroy,

Here is your quote from the GCA discussion about S&L post-war production, which came out of Alan Beadle's book "GERMAN COMBAT AWARDS 1935-1945":

QUOTE:
With the end of the Second World War in Germany in May 1945, large numbers
of German Orders and Medals were destined to fall into Allied hands. These
were to come from two sources: those taken directly from prisoners and the
dead and those from factories, shops and military stores. Of the great
medal producing centres of Lüdenscheid and Gablonz, Lüdenscheid, whilst
originally captured by the Americans, passed into the British Zone of
Occupation, whereas Gablonz ceased being a German town, became Czech and
then almost vanished from the post war medal manufacture and collecting
scene.

The factories of Lüdenscheid suffered some looting by US troops but, once
the tide of war had passed through and life in the ruins resumed some
degree of normality, the badge manufacturers began to realise that their
remaining stocks of German awards were popular souvenir items, particularly
with the British troops. As a result, display boards of badges were
produced. The firm of Steinhauer and Lück was a prime producer of these.

Normally on grey or brown card, these boards consisted on average of 15
badges and medals. The awards themselves were often numbered on the board
below and a written description on Steinhauer and Lück headed paper
accompanied the board. It would seem that the more you paid the bigger the
boards and the more numerous the awards you received. Some wooden boards
contained 50 different awards, including Knight's Crosses and Spanish
Crosses with the description neatly engraved on brass plaques below. In
the past these boards have often been described as "Salesmen's Sample
Boards" which they never were. One sure way of recognising them is by the
use of miniature size ribbons on full size awards.

For the British collector, other sources of supply were the naval stores of
the North German ports and the Reichs Chancellery in Berlin which was
finally entered, with Russian permission, by the British and Americans in
July 1945. Crates of awards had been used by the Waffen-SS defenders to
block windows during the storming of the Chancellery in April 1945 and in
July huge quantities of awards still remained to be collected up. Long
Service Medals, Eastern People's Awards, Iron Crosses, War Service Crosses
and Wound Badges including the 20th July version, were the most common
medals found at the Chancellery.

Meanwhile, back in Lüdenscheid, business was booming. The boards sold by
Steinhauer and Lück contained examples of their products, but also pieces
from other Lüdenscheid manufacturers who had made awards not produced by
Steinhauer and Lück, such as the GWL (Gebrüder Wegerhoff Lüdenscheid)
Luftwaffe Ground Combat Badges. As a result, certain unmarked awards on
Steinhauer and Lück cards cannot be assigned to this factory, although some
badges, such as the unmarked U-Boat Badge with wide vertical pin is taken
to be a Steinhauer and Lück production.
ENDQUOTE

Pay special attention to the sentences I highlighted. If this quote from Alan is to be believed, then it would seem that S&L was totally involved in these souveneir board sales and not just random individual workers. Also, it was clearly "big business", so when stocks ran out, do you honestly believe they just didn't stamp out more badges (and more variations) to keep the whole racket going? It is human nature to "keep doing what works and not change a thing if you don't have to".

Do you honestly think Bernie Madoff would have just stopped taking money from people if he all of a sudden didn't get caught??

Tom

[90th Light]

Hello Tom,

I have no problem at all that they were selling Nazi badges esp. in the period 1945 to 1947 and I think that the "salesmen barter boards" are an example of such a trade for sure.

I also think that they were finishing off work in progress bins but did they start making new ones once the existing stock ran out ??? In 1945 to 1946 there would be plenty around which were no longer wanted, needed or required and keep in mind that Germany's biggest year of production was in fact 1944 when they had finally got their economy up to the full potential of what economists call its Production Possibility Curve.

Not every allied serviceman in Germany wanted German badges or German any thing. Many considered it a very low thing to indulge in like grave robbing. I asked many returned servicemen in my younger days if they had anything and many said "no way"

Even when I started collecting 35+ years ago, you were considered a low life if you collected Nazi items and Japanese items were not viewed much better. To collect such things or have such things 40 to 60 years ago you risked being looked down upon by decent society. That is how it use to be here in New Zealand. Many would not even drive a German or Japanese car etc.

Another interesting thing for me in all of this, is that when I have encountered an Allied serviceman who was in Germany and got German items then in the majority of cases it was an English soldier who immiigrated to New Zealand and was in Germany in the period 1945 to 1947. I do not seem to have any in my recorded notes who were there 1948 to 1951 for example and got badges.

This fact then brings us back to the "salesmen barter boards", I suspect strongly that they were obtained in this time period 1945 to 1947 before the official policy really set in. From 1948, things go a lot more underground so big boards of entire sets of badges may not be so easy to conceal for a quick deal.

Now bringing this back to what this thread is about, the zinc "chicken leg" retired pilot badge is in existance in late 45 to 47. I do not think they made a new die in that period to complete the sets so it must have come into being in the period 44 to 45.

The question now is what does one made in the late war period before May 45 look like and how does one tell ???

so far Chuck's, Leroy's and my one (plus others which might surface after reading this) are in the running for the title but the most important point out of all of this is that this version existed and Juncker is not the only maker of this badge,

Lets not fall out guys, this is in fact a very useful debate because it is helping us all to understand a period which is not very well understood,

Chris

[Thomas Durante]

Hi Chris,

It is surprising to me that you say collecting nazi stuff 35 years ago was looked down upon in New Zealand. It seems to have been a little different in the USA. Granted I was not collecting then (I was 1 year old ), but I would say that most of the vets I have talked to over the last 10 years of collecting brought souveniers back. Both of my grandfathers brought back german and japenese badges. One brought back Italian badges and even some british cap badges. Both of my wifes grandfathers and both her uncles all brought badges and helmets and insignia back. One of my grandfathers brought back two Japenese rifles, a meatball flag and sword that were all proudly displayed in the living room for all to see. As far as the vets I talked to, swapping hard-earned battle soveniers was a big deal amonst the soldiers and were often put into shadow boxes and hung on the wall or album covers. Absolutely no shame in it whatsoever, these were hard won trophies and memories.

Your quote here:

"Now bringing this back to what this thread is about, the zinc "chicken leg" retired pilot badge is in existance in late 45 to 47. I do not think they made a new die in that period to complete the sets so it must have come into being in the period 44 to 45."

It is POSSIBLE that these zinc RP badges were made in 1944 or 1945, but its also possible that new dies were cut by S&L or others after the war for the souvenier trade. We have been speculating back and forth about this for a few pages now, but the only real way to get to the bottom of it is to find a verifiable example that came out of a vets possession and can be traced back to BEFORE May 1945. The British officer example cited by Leroy is close, but not definative because he cannot be verified to have come back before the end of the war.

The construction and reverse hardware can all be good clues for wartime production, but without finding a ground dug example, or one directly from a vet and tracable, etc, these will always be contentious IMO. You say that you "do not THINK they made a new die in the period of 45-47". While I don't disagree with you, we still cannot be sure. I may "THINK" so too, but without verifiable proof there will be continued resistance to this notion.

The good thing about this hobby is that we acquire new knowledge every day. Sometimes, like in this case, we don't have all the pieces of the puzzle and we are left to wonder. Too many times collectors want a definative answer and sometimes this just cannot be done ethically with the limited information at hand. We just have to continue to research and study and the answers will eventually come. You can read back on this forum even 5 years ago and see how much we have learned in that short time frame. Many makers have been associated with unmarked badges, and decades-old mysteries such as the misidentified "Wernstein" has been rectified just in the last few years.

It really is an exciting time in our hobby and I count myself fortunate to be a part of the research and discoveries!

Tom

[Leroy]

As far as my comments being humorous to you, would you rather continue this conversation without me? I do not own one of these badges and have no dog in this fight, but I do like to search for the truth. Seems to me that the only guys really fighting for this badge are the ones that own one. I can respect that, but other serious collectors have left this thread long ago because it is YOU that seem to be grasping at straws with the contention that S&L did NOT produce badges post war.

Tom

Thank you for the nice comments, not only about me but about others who possess a Retired Pilot by someone other than Juncker. I have already said, freely and openly, that I think mine is a copy and have provided dimensions and weights to help investigate this matter further.

I do believe that S&L produced Nazi badges postwar, especially in the period 1957 forward. I also believe that, in the early 50's, they, on a limited basis, and using existing components, produced pieces (especially RK's)
for special orders, and perhaps (as stated in the article you referenced many posts ago regarding the dealer, Herr Schiffer) MAY have even limited that production to "entitled" persons. You, on the other hand,seem to imagine that they remained in full-bore production from the day the war ended and provided a never-ending stream of badges and decorations to anyone and everyone, merely because their existing stock at war's end, as well as the existing stock of the other Ludenscheid firms, was used for barter and sale with Occupation troops. You seem to think this without any concern for how the stock of the other companies came to "share" these boards,what the role of these other companies may have been, what the situation was at the time, how long boards were even available for sale, or when this "hobby" we have really became the business it is today. I don't think (and NEVER have) that S&L's "hands are clean", but I do think that it's role in postwar production prior to 1957 has been exaggerated far beyond what it really was. The role of Souval is, in my personal opinion, significantly greater. Perhaps, if you had been born and were collecting in the 1950's, 1960's and 1970's, you might think that, too, but you weren't and that's not your fault.

I quoted Alan Beadle's book to demonstrate that such boards did, in fact, exist, and were known to early collectors such as Beadle, when many on this Forum thought they were either fraudulently made up by crooked dealers or the figment of some collector's imagination. Now, you seem to think that I have adopted his every word as my own. I will try to remember that when, and if, YOU ever quote something written by someone other than yourself.

Now that I have seen your last posts, I do not think your comments humorous at all. Your remark that "other serious collectors have left this thread long ago" because of ME, is not humorous in even the slightest degree, although I'm sure you think it was very clever.

Good luck to you, Tom.

[90th Light]

Hi Chris,

It is surprising to me that you say collecting nazi stuff 35 years ago was looked down upon in New Zealand. It seems to have been a little different in the USA. Granted I was not collecting then (I was 1 year old ), but I would say that most of the vets I have talked to over the last 10 years of collecting brought souveniers back. Both of my grandfathers brought back german and japenese badges. One brought back Italian badges and even some british cap badges. Both of my wifes grandfathers and both her uncles all brought badges and helmets and insignia back. One of my grandfathers brought back two Japenese rifles, a meatball flag and sword that were all proudly displayed in the living room for all to see. As far as the vets I talked to, swapping hard-earned battle soveniers was a big deal amonst the soldiers and were often put into shadow boxes and hung on the wall or album covers. Absolutely no shame in it whatsoever, these were hard won trophies and memories.

Your quote here:

"Now bringing this back to what this thread is about, the zinc "chicken leg" retired pilot badge is in existance in late 45 to 47. I do not think they made a new die in that period to complete the sets so it must have come into being in the period 44 to 45."

It is POSSIBLE that these zinc RP badges were made in 1944 or 1945, but its also possible that new dies were cut by S&L or others after the war for the souvenier trade. We have been speculating back and forth about this for a few pages now, but the only real way to get to the bottom of it is to find a verifiable example that came out of a vets possession and can be traced back to BEFORE May 1945. The British officer example cited by Leroy is close, but not definative because he cannot be verified to have come back before the end of the war.

The construction and reverse hardware can all be good clues for wartime production, but without finding a ground dug example, or one directly from a vet and tracable, etc, these will always be contentious IMO. You say that you "do not THINK they made a new die in the period of 45-47". While I don't disagree with you, we still cannot be sure. I may "THINK" so too, but without verifiable proof there will be continued resistance to this notion.

The good thing about this hobby is that we acquire new knowledge every day. Sometimes, like in this case, we don't have all the pieces of the puzzle and we are left to wonder. Too many times collectors want a definative answer and sometimes this just cannot be done ethically with the limited information at hand. We just have to continue to research and study and the answers will eventually come. You can read back on this forum even 5 years ago and see how much we have learned in that short time frame. Many makers have been associated with unmarked badges, and decades-old mysteries such as the misidentified "Wernstein" has been rectified just in the last few years.

It really is an exciting time in our hobby and I count myself fortunate to be a part of the research and discoveries!

Tom

Hello Tom,

no quite a different attitude here in NZ as opposed to the USA, You see for our soldiers, in the New Zealand army in WW2 it was a court martial offense to have enermy material without good reason even a luger for example so medals and badges were a real no-no. You could be seen as robbing from the dead. If a Kiwi soldier did do it then they had to be seen not to do it if you see what I mean it was all hush-hush. Also when they got home from the war, they were not allowed to talk about it, that too was looked down upon and you never openly displayed the stuff in your house. My uncle use to have all his DAK stuff hidden in a tool box in his garage so I would never miss a chance to help him fix his car. This is why it is very unusual to meet a New Zealand soldier who has added badges to impress you because it is a bloody hard job to get some of them to show you anything even a breast eagle. Many were quiet guys who like to get on with it rather than talk about it. This is why I am so certain about my ball hinge glider, I got from such a vet who was a POW.
(when the NZEF troop ships came home from the war and entered Wellington harbour which is our capital city, the troops were told they were going to be searched as they got off the boat for illegal items. Many have told me that you could see all sorts of things being thrown over board and even to this day, fishing boats still bring up the odd rusty remains of a luger or P38. Sad thing is the search never happened and I wonder how many badges were lost at that time).

When I started collecting, a collector who helped me a lot here was Alvin Shaw who sadly passed away 20 years ago. Alvin told me that at an Auction in 1953 he bought a small pack full of German WW2 items. When he paid for it a man older than himself publicly climbed into him about how low he was for buying such stuff and threatened him, others around him agreed that it was a bad thing to do. This shows you what public attitude was like. If you do it or have them then keep quiet about which is why it took time to get the vets to open up sometimes about it. Some vets even returned what they had brought back to Germany via the Red Cross here in New Zealand because they felt guilty for having taken it in the first place.

As far as the "chicken leg" goes in the period 1945 to 47, I just can not see them going to the trouble of making a new die to sell to GI & Allied servicemen. I mean why would they, the badge is not that well known or even popular at that time. There were plenty of nicer looking LW badges and how many servicemen were hell bent on paying good money to complete the set. Is it worth the cost and trouble of a new die. Makes more sense in my book that they put those "salesmen barter boards" together from what the already had in existance or could get their hands on with out the trouble of making more.

I agree with you that this hobby is a real learning curve and hence why I say "the more I collect the more I know but then the less I know"

My gut feeling beyond the fact that I have a badge but also based on the circumstances of how I got my badge was that mine and Leroy's are period but may have had the "L/11" added. Now by period are we talking 44 - 45 or 46 - 47. Keep in mind that I also got an unissued LW Roll of Honor Clasp on its ribbon with it and there were other nice awards like a Spainish Cross from memory in that lot which the Antique dealer got so a sample board is a possibilty which must also be considered for mine,

Chris

[Leroy]

Does anyone have weights and dimensions yet?

P.S. Forgot to add that the dealer referenced in the article previously mentioned was NOT Herr Schiffer, but Herr Knoth. Sorry for that error.

[Leroy]

Just some more information.

In his "Copy Archive", Detlev Niemann shows what he believes to be an "early postwar" unmarked flatback version of this badge in zinc by S&L (with cut-out bottom swastika). Here is a comparison of the measurements on my badge (which I already said is a copy in my opinion) and the one shown by Niemann:

Mine - Height: 54.18 mm Niemann's - Height: 54.70 mm
Width: 41.18 mm Width: 42.50 mm
Weight: 26.05 g Weight: 15.6 g

My badge demonstrates the degree of shrinkage I would expect from a well-done cast copy. The only thing which surprises me is the extreme difference in weight, since mine is also clearly zinc.

P.S. One of the things we should remember is that a badge produced during the war (or at least from mid-1941 forward) SHOULD be marked either with an "LDO" assigned number or a "PKZ" assigned number. Not always the case, but this would comply with rules in effect at the time.

[90th Light]

Hello Leroy,

sorry for my delay. I seem to have been pressed ganged into being one of Santa's helpers over the last couple of days and not much time for the badges.

Have had to measure my one manually not via digital but I get

Height, 54.15 mm
Width , 41.15 mm
Weight, 25.92g

My one would appear to be consistant with your esp. allowing for the fact that your swaz is solid and mine is not. This is probably hand done on the badge at the time of manufacture.

Will being interesting to see what chuck's findings are,

Chris

[90th Light]

This one needs to be brought to the top again,

Chris