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**Jos L C** · 12-04-2003, 06:43 PM

Well,
We've 2 badges of the same maker here..
I must say they look very professional..
The maker excists..
I never saw any others ..,maybe one..
Can't find strange things on them..
For now these badges look pretty good to me..

Jos.

**skip** · 12-05-2003, 02:34 AM

Great pics Francois.
Although the detail on these is´nt exactly top notch I would agree with Jos that they look convincing, especially the fact that they come from the family is a swinger as to originality.
I have never seen anything from this maker but will be asking around in my collecting circles if anybody has.
Great find Francois

Skip

**François SAEZ** · 12-05-2003, 03:11 AM

Skip,

Only one (the repaired one) came from the family with documents.

**skip** · 12-05-2003, 03:17 AM

Oh, OK,

but it does give provinance to the other one does´nt it.
BSW was never one of my favorites but its interesting to see them with this maker all the same.

Skip

**François SAEZ** · 12-05-2003, 05:11 AM

Originally posted by skip

but it does give provinance to the other one does´nt it.
Skip

Totally correct, at least for me

**skip** · 12-05-2003, 05:43 AM

Have just been doing some research. Euskirchen is in the Ruhr area of Germany, Essen and Düsseldorf are nearby. Strange that these are BSW parts from Austria when the huge badge producing town of Lüdenscheid is just down the road!
Who knows which companys bought parts from others though? probably a mystery that is not to be solved

Skip

**J Temple-West** · 12-05-2003, 07:09 AM

Hi Francois , at first sight I would have said it was yet another of these bogus ‘BSW’ pieces, marked by the fakers with every name in the book and when they ran out of known names they just went on with the run by making up a name that would be very hard to prove, either way..

The sticking point is that this one of yours’ comes with provenance which only re-enforces my belief that we must delve a little deeper and hope that this turns out to be a new maker..

I’ve posted an example of one of these BSW fakes… This one is an attempt at a Juncker wreath, and is marked with the Juncker mm, but has a very similar bird to the repaired one you show. Of course, the fakes must be made from an original badge so doesn’t prove much but it does show that these bad badges are getting better and that the fakers are willing to try anything.

Could you give us some measurements so that we can, at least, do some comparisons and see if they come into the ballpark …

Attached Files

fake bsw..juncker..fr.jpg (79.4 KB, 295 views)

**mmiller** · 12-05-2003, 08:09 AM

Thanks, Skip, I was wondering where Euskirchen was located. I measured my BSW P/O last night and the findings are as follows: Wreath is 42,2mm wide; wreath is 53,2mm high; eagle wingtips at widest point are 65mm; the width of the swaz (diagonally) is 12mm. The weight is 35,3g (keeping in mind that Francois has Pilots badges and mine is a P/O.

Mark

**François SAEZ** · 12-05-2003, 11:29 AM

first (not repaired)
Tombac quality
Weight: 40.87 gr
Wreath: 52,89
Wings: 65,32

2nd (repaired)
Tombac quality
Weight: 43,2 gr
Wreath: 52,84
Wings: 63,4

**Joseph D'Errico** · 12-06-2003, 10:20 PM

Hello Gentlemen,

Late to the thread, but I have been really studying the badges posted by Francois for a while. I do not think that that is a BSW eagle.

- Eagle’s beak is not correct for a BSW , to long and too much of a curve.
- The Talons are not like the early or later BSW, Yuri’s example starting with the left talon as well as the right is too thin as well as the way they clutching the swaz.
- The shape of the eagle’s head is not the same as BSW
- Wing details and breast feathering is not BSW

I can go on, but this piece in my opinion is not and was not made by BSW. The example posted on the e-stand by Yuri is textbook BSW.

I am not saying that the badge is not original, just not BSW.

I have also been putting most of my efforts into the maker mark and also see significant differences. Nothing to do with hard or soft strikes, the fonts themselves are different. The “Es” and “Ss” are not consistent and are a different font style.

I feel the badge is well made and cannot say that it is a repo, but after seeing the close ups with an open mind I have come to two conclusions, the badge is a repo or it is original to the maker and is very rare. Two sides of the spectrum, but I do not see the piece fitting in anywhere in between.

Theory, perhaps that J.Deutschbein was granted a small contract maybe 2000 pieces for example, rather than go the distance starting with concept drawings to various designs ect. Maybe they simply purchased a prototype that did not make the cut from BSW or another LW award maker. Just a theory that would tie the piece to BSW, as this is not being presented as a shared parts of different components but rather a finished product. I would also speculate that distance was not a factor given the criteria of buying a die from a larger maker rather than design one.

Just my thoughts,
Best,
JD

**Detlev Niemann** · 12-08-2003, 08:42 AM

Hello Francois.

I have to congratulate you again on possessing 2 of these very rare pilot badges. I had the fortune to have both on my table for inspection. This maker is in my eyes the rarest regular (maker marked) pilots badge of the 3rd Reich. They are very distinctive in their style and I can't see any resemblance to any other maker. If you are lucky you will see one of them in a years time. But thanks to Francois I will be able to list it in my next edition of my price guide. With abit of luck this ongoing dicussion will "free" some more badges out of their sleep as most collectors might have dumped them in their "copy-boxes"

regards

detlev

**Joseph D'Errico** · 12-08-2003, 09:11 AM

Hello Detlev,

Thank you for the input, any other information you can add to this piece ? Why so few examples exist, I mean two? Maybe some of the other memebers will show some pieces they own that bear this mark. Thoughts on smaller firms with small contract runs, buying secondary dies from larger firms, that is would might explain subtle similarities to known makers or were they perhaps their own design from the start. Also can you add anything about this maker. Look forward to hearing your response.

Best,
JD

**François SAEZ** · 12-08-2003, 04:38 PM

Originally posted by Joseph D'Errico

Why so few examples exist, I mean two?

I believe that more than the 2 I have are in collection - Since I have posted them on the forum I heard of another one in a private collection and "MAYBE" of another one seen.

Concerning pilot badges, I think we still have a lot to learn -
i.e. I have seen some beautifull original pilot & PO badges from MMiller I had never seen before

**Joseph D'Errico** · 12-08-2003, 05:09 PM

Hello Francois,

Agreed !! That thier is much to be learned about Pilot badges, I hope that someone that belongs to our association will post some pics as well. Well, they must be out there if Detlev had two and one of yours came from the family of a vet and not Detlev, so that would be three from different sources, posssibly four, if one of the examples you posted did not come from Detlev.

I am looking forward to seeing this thread develope as well as what other information Detlev can provide.

Clarification : Not a BSW piece or componets, are we in agreement on that ? My vote would be that the only link would be that BSW produced a master die that was sold off, but that is pure speculation.

2nd Clarification: What makes this badge original, what I mean is what do we know that would provide the inormation to say this is original, what are the benchmarks going to be ? I am just looking to bite my teeth into something solid here.

Looking forward for more information as this could be a great find.

Best,
JD

**J Temple-West** · 12-08-2003, 08:32 PM

What an interesting turn… I would have to disagree, definitely, (imo) taken from a BSW die or something very close…

<O

></O

>

The reason I put the Fake on this thread is that as soon as I saw the repaired example of Francois's I instantly noticed the similarities between the two birds…

Knowing that the fake was taken from an original BSW badge/die gave me place to start in comparing the two… The most striking comparisons are (quality of photo’s allowing) the feathers on the birds chest and left wing..

The most prominent feature is the shape, just above the red dot, shown in the comparison shot below. If you then radiate out from that particular feather shape you’ll notice that there other feathers that have the exact same position and shape on each badge….

<O

></O

>

What does this prove? Only that one is a known fake, made from a BSW die and that Francois's comes from the same die or one very similar, perhaps, as you say JD, supplied by BSW for the Company in question... but you have to say, both have the characteristics of a BSW eagle...
Of course this only my opinion and I place the comparison here for comments..

Attached Files

comparison No 1.jpg (52.5 KB, 236 views)

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