Food for the LW dogs

[Joseph D'Errico]

Hi Jay,

Could you post a pic of the reverse of your badge that you say is a BSW fake please.

Best,
JD

[J Temple-West]

Hi JD, Here's the back, as requested.. Luckily, It's not mine but an example that I have in my 'fake and suspicious file'.. This one, as mentioned, is MM'ed CE Juncker..

I've been through the forum's database and my own reference files and have found at least 3 examples of correct badges with the same feather configuration as Francois's and the fake, which to me means that BSW die's were used in the production of both... perhaps the die, used in the production of wartime pieces by this small company, was then acquired by the fakers, post war ??

[François SAEZ]

Thanks for posting pics, but I have to say that your pics don't match in details the 2 badges I have posted.

To be clearer, it is not my intention to push anybody to believe this badge is original or not - I share info on something I think is interesting, what we see here (maybe I get it wrong so don't hesitate to correct me) - JTW, with smooth words is saying more or less than the badges are closer to known fakes than to originals - he can be right, but what is interesting is that a proper reflexion would be based on
- Originals/textbook that I and all know originals
- Fakes that I and all know Fakes
- I don't know

instead of:
- Originals/textbook that I and all know originals
- Fakes that I and all know Fakes and because it doesn't match what I know

Nothing personal just an observation

[skip]

For me this is an authentic badge and another one to look for.
Hey, if JD does´nt want one thats more of a chance for me to get one, or not?

Thanks for bringing this to our attention Francois.

Skip

[Joseph D'Errico]

Clarification: I never said the badge was not original


But, Sir Jay brings some very convincing evidence, the badge he posted is more like the one originally posted by François . So with that said what are you basing your thoughts on (Skip), since the only examples are the two François posted ? So far, the only province brought forward was a comment by Detlev and a pic by Jay and a ton of speculation.

I do not believe the badge was made by BSW, not a chance.

I also would not buy this badge, so no worry from me Skippy, buy them up


Best,
JD

[skip]

Hi Joe,

really the only province is were Francois got the badge from. I don´t think hes telling us tales when he says he got it from a vet. Then of course Detlev likes it as well, not that I believe everything I´m told, but when the guy who sells good 90% of his stuff to Forum members (you included Joe) then that surly leans some weight to the originality.
Then there is the construction of the badge, nothing there that screams out at you copy, or are you seeing something I´m not (yes I know you don´t think its BSW, but there is, IMO a lot of similarity there)

I´m not trying to swing anybody one way or the other here, why should I, but being a Luft Badge collector this sure awakens my interest.

Skip

Clarification: I never said the badge was not original


But, Sir Jay brings some very convincing evidence, the badge he posted is more like the one originally posted by François . So with that said what are you basing your thoughts on (Skip), since the only examples are the two François posted ? So far, the only province brought forward was a comment by Detlev and a pic by Jay and a ton of speculation.

I do not believe the badge was made by BSW, not a chance.

I also would not buy this badge, so no worry from me Skippy, buy them up


Best,
JD

[François SAEZ]

Kermit,

No offence nor pissing contest, but honestly, can you point out the mistakes on the badge posted by Jay on the 2 pics he has posted?
Can you tell me the variations you know about BSW - you agree on 3 for Juncker (I see more) so why not on BSW.

What is so clear to you on Jay's assumption? Don't you think that we are here in:

- Originals/textbook that I and all know originals
- Fakes that I and all know Fakes and because it doesn't match what I know.

Joe when you say "I also would not buy this badge" be safe, they are not for sale.
I personally appreciate your participation but please don't distract the message I try to give here: think twice if you ever encounter this maker. That ALL - end of the story.

[Joseph D'Errico]

I never said that eithier , if that is where the badge came from so be it. We are trying to etablish a criteria for the badge , not the vet and certainly not Detlev. So, please concentrate on what we have to work with and keep the thread on line. I am not being harsh, if so please do not take it that way. I respect the thoughts and have a very open mind.



Overview;

- 2 badges posted from François, from a known maker, but only seen in these two examples ? Very rare indeed.

- Detlev says that they are identical to the two pieces he had at one time, is one of these posted by François, one of Detlevs ?

- The pics posted by Jay sure look like the Obverse of the examplesposted by François.

- Never said that you were trying sway anyone as well.

Clarification: Nothing has been brought to the table to provide more than good speculation and thoery.But IMHO nothing solid

Best,
JD

[J Temple-West]

Hi Guy’s, all we are doing is bringing as much evidence, as possible, to the table in order, by a process of elimination, to gain insight into an unknown…

It’s certainly not my intension to prove this maker, bogus. I’m only trying to point out that there is a definite connection to BSW..

Forget the Fake, only posted to prove that fakes were produced from the same style of die, as mentioned. I have found originals with the same configuration and if the badge, and I sincerely hope it turns out to be an original and unknown maker, would make it all the better for us..

Francois’s provenance and Detlev’s ‘seal of approval’ of course adds a mighty weight to the balance of probability.

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Now, I’m going to be naughty and post some examples of excepted originals, one coming from D’s site and the other posted by a forum member (should the owners object, I will of course remove them) You will notice the same style of feathering to both.. Yes, there are differences, as one would expect from the variety of dies used, but there are also marked similarities bringing me to believe that this small company

was in fact a sub-contractor for BSW and was perhaps used to allow BSW to produce and supply amounts over and above the allowance given by the authorities… Again, speculation, but would make sense….

[François SAEZ]

....
- 2 badges posted from François, from a known maker, but only seen in these two examples ? Very rare indeed.

- Detlev says that they are identical to the two pieces he had at one time, is one of these posted by François, one of Detlevs ?...

They were on his table because I sent them for expertise = THEY WERE MINE - they were not from him and I don't like at all what you mean here (and I stay polite) - I understand that some see things on a commercial way when other see them on a collector point of view - That is the difference.

Now this thread turns personal, so, for personal issues, send me pm

[Joseph D'Errico]

Hello François, I think you misunderstood me, what I was asking is if their were a total of four examples, your 2 and D's 2. Therefore, that would make four examples known to exist. I do not understand why you are getting upset, I am excited about these pieces and I hope that they are a new rare maker. However, concentrating on the facts thus far, I am just trying to tie it all together. So, where at two know examples, both yours that were on Detlevs table; same pieces, Geesh My reference was that this was not the textbook BSW die, I did suggest that this might have been a second produced by BSW as one to be considered, but did not make it so they sold it to perhaps this dealer. That is what I said earlier. Therefore, I am with you so far, but when Jay posted those pics of bogus Juncker, I see a lot in common. But thus far we only have two examples both yours, correct. I hope to see more. But where do we go from here if these are the only two examples

Best,

JD

PS @ François, you know me better than that. In addition, why is this thread personal did I say something wrong?
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[Frank Heukemes]

The bogus Juncker marked fake posted by John is similar to the Deutschbeins, because both are similar to a BSW. The similarity, if not absolute resemblance, should not be neglected. Detlev seems to have missed that or is indeed of another opinion.

Just for the record, I also think the Deutschbein badges are originals and I might have another one to show to you soon out of a German collection.

Cheers, Frank

[J Temple-West]

Thanks Frank, succinct as ever... I’m very much looking forward to seeing this ‘Deutschbein’ you mention..

This is getting exciting, I must say….

[Joseph D'Errico]

Hello Frank,

This is great news, so I guess we do have a new discovery, at least for me. Bad news is I thought that I had finished the pilot badges series.

When badges like this come up, how many examples do you think were made by Deutschbein? Also any idea as to what they are best known for.

Can't wait to see more pics, what a really great thread. I hope more come out of the wood work.

Well, congrats Francois

Best,
JD

[skip]

OHHH, come on Joe, you said you were going to leave all of these for me to buy up

I knew that Frank would want one and John as well and undoubtably Neil H. will also want one and Tim C.
Damm Francois could´nt you have kept this quiet until I have mine


Skip