Fliegererrinnerungsabzeichen

[mott5ranch]

finally, the catch up close.

[Philippe DB]

Hi Gary,

Beautiful badge, this type also was described in the article posted by Yuri but for me it's the first I have ever seen. This must be one of the most rare luftwaffe badges.

Thanks for sharing.

KR
Philippe

[Yuri D.]

I don't feel comfortable about that badge. That C.E. Juncker logo does not conform to the standard logo seen on all other early Tombak badges.

Yuri

[Philippe DB]

;;;;;;;;;;

[mott5ranch]

OK. . . . .can you post some photos of your badge that you feel comfortable with? I forgot that Juncker only had one maker mark design for this badge.

[Frank Heukemes]

If one checks against Bill Stump´s and Pieter Verbruggen´s Juncker originals, it is also obvious that the obverse design is not Juncker on Gary´s badge. The Juncker eagle on these badges has a very specific head and feather design.

Cheers, Frank

[mott5ranch]

We're not comparing apples and apples here. Bill's badge didn't have the cut out legs. All the birds posted here were the solid versions, not the cut outs.

[Yuri D.]

Gary,

Just to note another variation with the cut-out legs, please take a look at the one shown in Forman's 3rd Edition. The cut out is different, the stamp is higher on the badge, and the beak is thinner.

Yuri

[ERIC S.]

Hi Guys,
Here's my zinc example that I've had in my collection for quite a long time. It looks to me to match "variant 2" in the article Yuri posted. I've always believed it to be original and still do. It carries a late war Juncker mark. Thoughts on this one?
ERIC

[ERIC S.]

Reverse:

[Gene]

Here are my two zinc examples

[ERIC S.]

The hinge, catch and maker mark up close.

[Gene]

Reverse

[Mark S.]

Great thread with interesting opinions. My turn..

First off, I think that the article shared by Yuri, isn't so much a research article, as it is an attempt to justify some collectors badges. He says he has provenance, yet doesn't bother to share it. For this and other reasons, I would approach the information provided there with extreme caution, at least in terms of primary resource material.

In other words, it is just one mans opinion, not unlike what we do here every day. Just because it is printed doesn't mean squat.

The loudest question I have, is why would a Deumer Luft badge be marked L/11, when every other Deumer Luft badge is marked with the full name? The "LDO stock" story, is just that, a story. What about all the other zinc Deumer marked Luft badges in LDO stock after the war? Where is the consistency? None of those are marked L/11, why these?

On that note, why would they be stocking up on these anyway? What ever pool of people that qualified for them before the war surely would be thinner in the mid 1940's. Would there really be a reason to be mass producing these on the scale of Air Gunner or even Pilots badges? I just don't see the logic that would explain not only zinc badges, but a handful of variations. I am not suggesting that zinc badge didn't exist, but these remind me of a Hydra, as soon as one is dismissed as fake, two more pop up that are just different enough to be considered...If I had to deal with this with every Third Reich badge, I probably wouldn't bother collecting, so why these?

To explore this deeper, why do most all of these zinc badges have the same hardware, no matter how they are marked? Philippe touched on the GH Osang connection, and the resemblance between these and an Osang Luft Ground combat badge didn't escape me either. Tie that into the glut of fake Osang marked badges in to late '60's and it only gets harder to believe. Of course, most of those badges were marked Osang. Without drawing conclusions, I think it would be unwise to completely disregard the comparison.

I don't find it surprising that the example posted by Bill Stump not only has the degree of detail we would expect from an early Juncker badge, as well as overall construction (it certainly passes the "gut instinct", at least for me) but also the extremely high degree of rarity we would expect from these badges. Two examples among many, Bills' and Peter's badges stand high above the rest. The lack of photographic evidence to me shows that this badge was exceedingly rare, but not necessarily non existent.

A provocative argument was made that perhaps the Great War fliers preferred their Imperial badges over their Third Reich ones. This could be true, at least in some instances, but from the photographic instances I am aware of, most would wear both if given the chance. Of course, this opinion is based partly on loaded up studio portraits, so I may be off base. What exactly are the regs regarding the wear of WW I flight badges? Is it the same as the use of WW I Iron crosses and wound badges, and in some cases, a tank badge? Would it even be correct to mix up what were actually qualification badges with a commemorative badge? The only time one was substituted was due to overlap, and since there isn't any overlap, why the substitution?

I also think that we would expect to find these in boxes. Again, the inconsistency among these issuance of these badges in conjunction with other Luft flight badges leaves me in a lurch. There are entirely to many of theses out there loose for me to believe that is "the way they came". Even long lost paper packets doesn't jive with what this badge was issued for, to recognize the efforts of an old man that had been flying for almost 30 years. Remember, this was the dawn of the age of flight, and many pilots were killed in the process of learning. To actually have survived the Great War as a flyer, then see service in the Reich was a feat not held by many, and based upon how the German revered their "flyboys" would make me think that getting one of these would be a big deal, bestowed upon an old man, probably at a special dinner. OK, perhaps that may be getting a bit creative, but I think you understand the point I am trying to make.

Please note that I am not calling into doubt every badge that doesn't look like Bill's and Peter's, but rather to explore other considerations, some of which I hope I outlined above. In the end, it is just one mans opinion.

[Philippe DB]

Hi Guys,

Just got home and looked at the badges posted by Gene and Eric.

This gets more complicated with every badge shown. Untill Gary posted his badge every example previously posted showed the same characteristics.

Know we have Eric badge, probably also zink, with a quit uncommon mm, but a perfect "Juncker type" hinge in contradiction to all the zink badges posted earlier and the ones shown in Yuri's article but with an identical eagle. So is Eric's badge just an earlier example?

Gene's left badges shows a hinge that looks like most earlier posted badges but isn't a pefect match. This in combination with a catch without catchplate like the ones you would expect to see on buntmetall badges. The badge to the right has the known setup but lacks all finish or maybe never had finish, difficult to tell from the pictures.

I think I'll postpone my decision on buying such a badge for a little longer and first do some more research in an effort to establish variants and possible makers of these awards.

KR
Philippe