Assmann Flak, two patterns?

[Frank Heukemes]

Dear Gene,

This thread was started by me to finally find out if my SUSPICION, that the Assmann Flaks with the hole and surprisingly different design COULD be fakes was right or wrong. I honestly would like to learn about but can´t, because I never held a badge like that only see them in pictures.

This thread should not be about defending any collector´s honour if he has or hasn´t got the guts to tell a good badge from a wrong one. It should strictly be about the badges.

Being unable to hold your badge myself, please answer us some questions:

-you seem to be 100% CONVINCED the badge is original Assmann. Why is that? Does the badge have a history?

-what can be said about what seems to be solder around the hinge/pin and the catch?

@Jos: this is not about just the eagle. The whole badge has a different design, eagle, wreath and gun.

Cheers, Frank

[Gene]

Frank and all,

Yes, I am CONVINCED this badge is good because of the circumstances I came into it. No, it wasn't a vet piece but a flea market find in either Trier, Germany, or Echternachbruecke, Luxembourg. I've been to so many I forget. Anyway, the price, if I remember, was around DM50. If I recall the time of purchase, it was the summer of 1985 when the dollar was incredibly strong (like DM3 to $1). At the same table I picked up some Flak Oberstleutnant boards, tabs and a ribbon bar that came off a uniform. I don't have a digital camera worth a crap but I've got a good scanner. If you want closeups of any portion, just ask. If it wasn't such a bitch to send stuff through the Zoll I'd even send you the thing to see for yourself, not that you're saying it's fake but to allay fears it may be.

Gene

[Frank Heukemes]

Dear Gene and all interested,

I will show you a badge that is of your design (or so it seems at first sight). I know from whom I received these pictures and for now I do not want to name the owner. If we wants to come forward, his comments might be helpful. Anyway, if you see this and this is your badge and you want to have it pulled, I will do so.

Ok, here´s the catch:

While it seems to be the same as Gene´s, check these areas:

-the lowest "adjustment wheel" of the flak gun. Clearly different.
-compare rivets, especially check the Flak guns very base for rivets. One design has rivets, one doesn´t.

This badge also looks good, generally speaking. I am just not sure what to make of all these different Assmann Flak Badge designs. So we do have at least three different obverse designs.

Cheers, Frank

[Frank Heukemes]

reverse

[Philippe DB]

Hi Frank,

Alltough I have to admit that the Flak you posted looks a little more convincing, maybe to convincing and a little overaged, where did al the patina come from all of a sudden, I still have my doubts.

Most troubeling for me is the Assmann logo on both badges. If there was one maker that used a lot of different logos I admit it was Assmann but on non of my 5 Assmann marked luft badges the mm is in such a bad condition. IMO this is an early Assmann mm with the angled serifs on the vertical A legs, when the Assmann die for this logo started to wear it developed a circle arround the logo. If this is just a worn logo where is the circle.

Also on this badge it's clearly visible that the eagle is positioned to high, so this isn't just an error on Gene's badge but a system. Probably it was tho only way to do it because the Juncker Eagle was to big for the Assmann wreath.

The use of a second pattern Juncker eagle on an early Assmann badge also still worries me. Look at Assmann Observer and Pilot badges did you ever see one with a 3pattern Juncker eagle. No always with very early Juncker eagles.

The more I look at this badge the more I'm convinced that these were very early copies produced just after the war with original parts. But than again thats something I can't proof so everybody has to make up his mind for himself on these badges.

KR
Philippe

[Frank Heukemes]

Dear Philippe,

Look at Assmann Observer and Pilot badges did you ever see one with a 3pattern Juncker eagle. No always with very early Juncker eagles.

I cannot follow you here, can you please explain? IMO Assmann flight badges have Assmann eagles, nothing else.

Cheers, Frank

[Philippe DB]

Dear Frank,

Did I make a mistake

Wrote this out of my memory and can't access my files at this moment. I thought I remembered that those 1 pattern Juncker Eagles with the round eye were the same that also were used on the early Assmann observers or was it the other way arround or neither of both.

Sorry if this information was incorrect I think my head is getting to small to be able to store all the info on all the badges, will look it up tonight.

Anyway my point stays the same what is that late juncker eagle doing on an early Assmann. Problem would be solved if we agreed that this was a late Assmann but than again why an early impressed Assmann Logo on a late badge.

KR
Philippe

[Frank Heukemes]

Dear Philippe,

Regarding Assmann´s pilot badges you made a mistake for sure. Even if the early Assmann eagles resemble early Juncker eagles, they are different. Can´t really say about the early Assmann Observer eagles, but my guess would be they are unique to Assmann as well (as far as I can see on pictures).

But back to the main topic, the Flak badges of Assmann. What does anybody apart from Philippe and me think about the 3rd shown badge and how it changes the overall view at the Assmann Flaks?

I admit that Gene finding his badge on a fleamarket together with genuine Flak insignia is a good sign supporting the "real" theory, but should not be regarded as more than that. We know anything is possible. However, I know I can trust Gene´s judgement and he has the badge in his hands.

Cheers, Frank

[Philippe DB]

Dear Philippe,

Regarding Assmann´s pilot badges you made a mistake for sure. Even if the early Assmann eagles resemble early Juncker eagles, they are different. Can´t really say about the early Assmann Observer eagles, but my guess would be they are unique to Assmann as well (as far as I can see on pictures).

Frank, your right, just went through some old threads to see where I could have picked up this idea but didn't find anything. Probably my brain is starting to lead a live of it's one due to overload of information in the last couple of months.

Sorry for this mis-information guys

KR
Philippe