Honor goblet on estand

[Gary B]

The price is not the issue. I do think it is a little high for an Alpaka goblet, despite being awarded to a RK recipient.

Flipping a piece simply for profit is the issue. Martin states he did not hold it for one week, he held it for three. That makes a HUGE difference . This piece was bought specifically to flip and denied another collector, who would have actually enjoyed it for what it was, a nice piece at a good price. Now we have a dealer priced piece that is being used as a trading chit, rather than a historical object which could have been enjoyed and researched by a collector. What a shame.

Knowing how a piece was acquired is important. Would the price be irrelevant if it was stolen? How about if it was "bought" from an unsuspecting vet for $5? The manner in which this was bought and immediately flipped is disturbing to me. Apparently most everyone else not only thinks it is okay, but applauds it. Yet none of these people have stepped up and paid Martin his "well earned profit" by paying him for the piece. Why? They are saying one thing and doing another.

I have bought some pieces at good prices. The vast majority are still in my collection. But those pieces that I sold, I passed on those good deals to other collectors. I guess this would not be as disturbing to me at all if Martin had actually bought the piece because he wanted it, and needed to sell it for his other purchase (which is what he says- yeah, right) at a modest profit, benefitting both himself and the actual collector. I think doubling the price of a piece in a couple of weeks is just really poor form. i don't think that anyone begrudges someone a profit in anything, but this is what I would call outrageous. I mean if the guy just resold the piece even for a $2K more, it would have been a good deal for a buyer, he would have pulled a profit for his "other purchase", and it would not have looked nearly as bad.

Let's see if it sells and all the "collectors" here step up and buy it, as they have said it is a fair price, they like it, and there is nothing wrong with doubling the price in a few weeks. At least that is what they have said.

Dear Bill,

It is not my place, or yours, to judge his word on why he bought the piece. He stated he bought it for his collection and then decided to sell it to pay off another piece that he was buying. Martin has given none of us on this forum a reason to doubt his word.

As for your selling pieces at a better price for other collectors on the forum, that is good on you and I commend you for it. I, too, have sold things at under market value but mainly to move pieces out of my collection quickly and not necessarily having a prime motivator to give a fellow collector a break.

I see your point on the history of a piece (stolen, ripped off a vet etc.) but this is not the case here. This was bought from a dealer site. What about the person who sold it thru Collectors Guild (everything on the site is consignment)? He did not receive the full potential for the piece, are we to blame someone for not telling Peter he should put the piece on hold and let the seller know he was a few thousand short on the price?

I am not sure if you are aware of dealer mark up on pieces. I have been fortunate enough to know what some of the sponsors of this site as well as other dealers buy pieces there is quite a mark up on items. I do not begrudge them of this.

As for not stepping up to the plate to buy his piece. That does not mean people are against his profit or that people believe it is overpriced. There are many items out there I want but can not afford at this time. I am sure there are pieces out there right now that you want but can not buy even though they may be under market price.

This is Martin's piece and he can ask fo rit what he wants. Had he asked some ridiculous price I would agree with you. There is no greed involved here. He is just asking for the fiar price on the piece.

Also Bill what if Martin had bought the piece for $200. What should he sell it for then?

Gary B

[Darrell]

This thread is insane
Shut up and let Martin complete he's sale ,,,

By the way , IMO Martin your sale is Fu++ed up by this thread .

It is a shame

Why is that Randy? There are plenty of posters in this thread that say it's still a reasonable price. Why should a sales thread by Fu++ed up by discussing price? The item sells itself doesn't it?

The reason it hasn't sold is it's WAAAY to high and even the people that haven't contibuted on this thread know that ....

[Don D.]

How about if it was "bought" from an unsuspecting vet for $5?

Dealers and thier pickers do this all the time. Do you buy from them?

[Gary B]

Dear Darrell,

Please refer to the thread on goblet pricing that was linked to earlier in this thread. As I mentioned in my thread before this one, I found 3 goblets on sites for between $4500 and $5000. These were Alpaca goblets to NCO gunners.

What would you expect to pay for an RK attributed goblet?

GAry B

[Jeff V]

Dear Darrell,

Please refer to the thread on goblet pricing that was linked to earlier in this thread. As I mentioned in my thread before this one, I found 3 goblets on sites for between $4500 and $5000. These were Alpaca goblets to NCO gunners.

What would you expect to pay for an RK attributed goblet?

GAry B

Hi Gary, I am afraid the prices you found are not relevant. You could quote Steve Wolfes absurd prices if you wanted to. He probably has an RK winner goblet for 25K, does that make them worth 25K?
Martin can ask whatever he wants for the goblet. That is the free market working. If the piece does not sell, it is priced to high. Simple as that.
I see items that Bill Shea has had for sale on his site for almost 4 years. Still unsold. Are they priced fairly as well ?Just because someone pulls a outrageous price out of thin air does not make it the correct market price. We know this goblet is worth $4100 because that is what Martin paid for it. Any amount over this is just price speculating.
best wishes,
jeff

[Brian S]

Dear Bill,

Have you not read Martin's postings? He stated he bought the goblet one week and something else came along a week later that was more in line with his collecting interests so he is selling the piece to pay the new item off. Even if he bought it to flip for a profit SO WHAT. He was smart enough to see an item that was underpriced and had the luck, and money, to pick it up.

The price is the price. It is the market value of the piece. He is not gouging anyone with a ridiculous price. What he paid for it and when he bought it are immaterial. Why do you think as a collector he is obligated to sell this to another collector for less than market value? When you sell your collection are you going to sell everything at 70% of its value?

Do a search on the internet. I found 3 Alpaca goblets for sale on 2 different sites. They were all between $4500 and $5000 USD, and all were "average" goblets awarded to NCOs. This is a wonderful goblet to an RK recipient who went on later to achieve Flag rank in the new German AF.

As for others who complain about pricing; there are many thing I would like to have in my collection that pop up for sale on the e-stand that I can not afford. I don't hold it against the seller. I don't expect him to give me a hand out. I don't ask him what did he pay for it and when did he buy it, and please give me a break because I am a collector and not a dealer. I either pay his price or I pass.

The only reason we are having this discussion is that you know what he paid for the piece and when he bought it. Everything else on the e-stand could have been found in a garbage dump yesterday and is being sold for a profit. Are we going to start requiring sellers to post what they paid for a piece and when they bought it. What determines how long a person can hold on to a piece before they can flip a profit, what is considered a good profit. Just because someone got something cheap are they supposed to sell it below market price??

Gary B

You are missing the obvious. No is arguing that it's more valuable than a normal goblet. Not the point. The point is it was purchased to make a quick buck, off you and me... That's just contempt for you and me. If it were all about the hobby, a simple note to me, to Tim C. or others about the opportunity to pick up a really great goblet for our collections would have yielded an infinite amout of goodwill. But no goodwill here, just profit. Sorry you are unable to discern the difference.

[Bill W.]

You are missing the obvious. No is arguing that it's more valuable than a normal goblet. Not the point. The point is it was purchased to make a quick buck, off you and me... That's just contempt for you and me. If it were all about the hobby, a simple note to me, to Tim C. or others about the opportunity to pick up a really great goblet for our collections would have yielded an infinite amout of goodwill. But no goodwill here, just profit. Sorry you are unable to discern the difference.

I agree completely.

[mdj]

Gary, please spare your efforts. You are a wise man. And some arent't.

Martin

[Gary B]

Hi Gary, I am afraid the prices you found are not relevant. You could quote Steve Wolfes absurd prices if you wanted to. He probably has an RK winner goblet for 25K, does that make them worth 25K?
Martin can ask whatever he wants for the goblet. That is the free market working. If the piece does not sell, it is priced to high. Simple as that.
I see items that Bill Shea has had for sale on his site for almost 4 years. Still unsold. Are they priced fairly as well ?Just because someone pulls a outrageous price out of thin air does not make it the correct market price. We know this goblet is worth $4100 because that is what Martin paid for it. Any amount over this is just price speculating.
best wishes,
jeff

Hi Jeff,

Your point regarding absurd pricing is well taken, but I have to disagree with your statement that if something does not sell it is overpriced. As I mentioned before the members of this forum do not constitute the whole population of collectors. Items that do not sell on dealer sites or the e-stand can remain there for a multitude of reasons; no interest in the piece, people interested in it do not have the money on hand, item is not as described etc.

This is not an outrageous price for the piece in question. There are EKs on sites and in dealers inventories for $200 and up. Just because they have not sold does not mean that EKs are not worth that. True a piece will sell for what the market can bear and what someone is willing to pay for a piece but in most instances there is a historical reference for starting pointon pricing. If that was not the case then everytime something sold something one would have to guess at a price.

Gary B

[WenRan]

Why is that Randy? There are plenty of posters in this thread that say it's still a reasonable price. Why should a sales thread by Fu++ed up by discussing price? The item sells itself doesn't it?

The reason it hasn't sold is it's WAAAY to high and even the people that haven't contibuted on this thread know that ....

Darrell ,

Do you really think that somebody is going to by the goblet now ?

NO , because everybody knows what profit he will made by the sale .

And yes the item is worth 8K.

But everybody thinks ,,,

I'am not going to buy it because Martin make's a 4K profit off it .

I wonder iff he did not received any pm's with ;
Do you want to sell it to me for 6K , than you have a 2K profit ,
is that not good enough .

And 3 months later the goblet will be sold again for 8K .

So here we go ...................

[Jeff V]

Hi Gary, I hear you, and agree with you. However, the hobby and its pricing have changed in the last 6 months. Items that used to sell within an hour of listing on the e-stand, now sit unsold for weeks until they finally disappear. To me, the immediate flip of this goblet by Martin for a 100% profit really exemplifies what is wrong with the hobby. Behavior like this by collectors and dealers have resulted in the prices we have today. When things are going up every week fueled by the investor mentality, the "greater fool" theory applies. Each person who pays a top price believes that will will always be a greater fool to pay him more money. Eventually a point is reached where this won't happen any more and someone is left holding the bag. I personally believe that the time is near.
best wishes,
jeff

[Jeff V]

Darrell ,

Do you really think that somebody is going to by the goblet now ?

NO , because everybody knows what profit he will made by the sale .

And yes the item is worth 8K.

But everybody thinks ,,,

I'am not going to buy it because Martin make's a 4K profit off it .

I wonder iff he did not received any pm's with ;
Do you want to sell it to me for 6K , than you have a 2K profit ,
is that not good enough .

And 3 months later the goblet will be sold again for 8K .

So here we go ...................

You are totally wrong Randy. We all know that dealers make some incredible profits and that does not prevent us from buying from them. Recently a member got an original oakleaves at an antique store for very little money, he then sold it at a nice discount off the market rate to a collector at the e-stand. Everyone was happy, including me. If anything, this thread has given Martin a tremendous amount of advertising on his goblet. It cetainly has not hurt his sale.
best wishes,
jeff

[WenRan]

You are totally wrong Randy. We all know that dealers make some incredible profits and that does not prevent us from buying from them. Recently a member got an original oakleaves at an antique store for very little money, he then sold it at a nice discount off the market rate to a collector at the e-stand. Everyone was happy, including me. If anything, this thread has given Martin a tremendous amount of advertising on his goblet. It cetainly has not hurt his sale.
best wishes,
jeff

That is your thought Jeff ...

But arent you the one who said bill shea had an item for 4 years on he's site ........

It looks like's we do prevent buying from dealers .

We are always looking to snap the cheap item's .

And for the fun you sell it years later to get other item's

Iff Martin just had wait for 1 year to sell ,,, this thread never existed

[Bill W.]

Darrell ,

Do you really think that somebody is going to by the goblet now ?

NO , because everybody knows what profit he will made by the sale .

And yes the item is worth 8K.

But everybody thinks ,,,

I'am not going to buy it because Martin make's a 4K profit off it .

I wonder iff he did not received any pm's with ;
Do you want to sell it to me for 6K , than you have a 2K profit ,
is that not good enough .

And 3 months later the goblet will be sold again for 8K .

So here we go ...................

This is a an odd statement. First Randy says it is okay to skin another collector for a 100% plus profit for holding a piece for three weeks. In the next breath he says no one will buy it because they know that a huge unwaranted profit is being made. This suggests that the potential buyer does not condone such practices (as I would assume most would not, if they were actually honest) and that affects thier decision to purchase or not. If this was perfectly okay, it should have no bearing whatsoever on the sale of the item.

The oakleaves example is what I would hope would occur more often. But, according to most on this thread, that sale was just stupid, as the seller helped out himself and another collector. I guess I am just stupid.

[Kevin V.]

Hi Martin

Nice find!
I would have been much happier of course if you would have found a nice Juncker Knights Cross for half the price and offered it to me for the current market value. I would have bought it immediately!

I personally don't have any problems of making a profit as because of the lack of research by the dealer you made a nice score.

Thanks
Kevin