honor goblet value

[J. McCabe Bell]

Moelders Ehrenpokal

Just saw this thread. Also noticed that Adrian Forman's new book had the Moelders Pokal featured in it, which I believe Steve Wolfe still has for sale. I asked him for close-ups some time ago, and it might be interesting to post them here for further scrutiny.

[J. McCabe Bell]

Close-ups of the engraving style.

I have never seen this style before. Does it help date the engraving?

[J. McCabe Bell]

In answer to a few of the questions raised, Steve told me Hitler toured the Eastern Front in the summer of 1942. That was when the squadron presentation was made. There is supposed to be a photo in a Russian archive but he hasn't turned it up yet. He said a copy was with the Pokal when he last sold it in the 80s.

Presumably Goering was high at Karinhall at the time!

Moelders was on the wrong side of Bormann which may have proved fatal in the end, but Hitler respected Moelders enormously and had he lived he might have replaced Goering someday! Certainly would have made a more effective General of Fighters than Galland.

Hanna Reitsch got her diamond pilot's badge broach from Hitler. For a VIP like Moelders would another presentation from Hitler have been so shocking? Who was going to say no? He made RK awards at the higher grades to all services. This is not a run-of-the-mill Pokal, but engraved to a national hero.

That is his explanation.

[chen]

This is the same story I heard from Steve.
Imagine if I am a faker to have a choice deciding whether to engrave a famous Luft. personnel's name on it or to engrave Molder's squadron name on it, I would choose the former. Not only because it is more easy to sell, it also involves less engraving work.

[chen]

Still a beauty.

[waterloo]

Ein sehr schöner Pokal , der durch diese Gravur leider total versaut wurde.

Warum sollte A.H. die persönliche Ehrengabe Görings verleihen?
Der Führer war nicht nur ein großer Verbrecher, sondern auch ein großer Stifter von Orden und Auszeichnungen. Er hatte es bestimmt nicht nötig , das Geburtstagsgeschenk der deutschen Flugzeugindustrie an den Reichsmarschall Göring als besondere Anerkennung Mölders in die Hand zu drücken. Zudem wäre solch ein "Gnadenakt" garantiert in allen deutschen Medien der Zeit breitgetreten.
Aber wenn weiterhin einige leichtgläubige Sammler an Märchen glauben möchten, bitte schön.

Herzliche Grüße
Waterloo

[J. McCabe Bell]

Weiss nicht, Waterloo, I wasn't there!

Though it's a thankless task getting into the head of fakers, I have to agree with Chen.

Why not do the easy thing and engrave it to him...on his birthday...or any other anniversary...

No one is saying anything about the significance of August 1942 to the squadron.

Unfortunately the War Diary of JG 51 is lost.

Calling Hitler Verbrecher and Moelders a Spanish Civil War murderer does not aid in this research. Since the Luftwaffemuseum has been staffed with Ost-Deutsche and Moelders blackballed it's hard to get people to address the facts dispassionately...

[J. McCabe Bell]

Check me if I'm wrong, but JG 51 suffered its highest losses in August 1942.

If that's true, and not generally known but verifiable, why would a faker chose that distinction to build a spurious unit award around?

I'm still wondering if a student of engraving can identify that style of lettering. I have never seen it before.

[kaiserwilhelm2]

Zudem wäre solch ein "Gnadenakt" garantiert in allen deutschen Medien der Zeit breitgetreten.
Waterloo

+1; very sceptical as to the originality of the engraved dedication.

[waterloo]

Ich möchte den Pokal nicht nach dem Stil und der Art der Gravur beurteilen.
Graveure welche in den 40er Jahren arbeiteten waren auch noch 20 oder 30 Jahre nach dem Krieg aktiv.
Wichtiger ist der zeitgeschichtliche Zusammenhang. Werner Mölders war der absolute Superheld seiner Zeit, ein leuchtendes Vorbild der damaligen deutschen Jugend. Eine Ehrung mit solch einem Pokal, persönlich aus der Hand Adolf Hitlers , ist ohne entsprechende Begleitung durch Wochenschau und Zeitung ist für mich undenkbar. Ein besonderes Zeichen diesen Regimes war seine bis ins kleinste Detail perfekte Propaganda. Besondere Ehrungen von vorbildlichen Kriegshelden als geheime Reichssache, völlig unglaubwürdig. Wir befinden uns hier in einer Zeit in der selbst Erfolge von Schulkindern beim sammeln von anglo-amerikanischen Kartoffelkäfern in den Gazetten gefeiert wurde.
Gruß waterloo

[J. McCabe Bell]

For something to exist you must be aware of newsreel footage? Have you watched every reel produced in 1942? Is it possible film was shot and not used or disapproved? Maybe we should watch Wochenschau from the Fall of 1942 and judge whether Goebbels approved stories less newsworthy than "JG51 gets a Pokal" while the 6th Army drives on Stalingrad.

I see a very unique engraving. If it is a type NOT used in the 1940s that proves it is a fake. That would be much easier. Especially as we are all skeptical of it.

[chen]

Can anyone translate what Waterloo said in his last 2 posts? Thanks.

[kaiserwilhelm2]

Can anyone translate what Waterloo said in his last 2 posts? Thanks.

Simply put that Pokal is no good as there is nothing about it in the TR press at the time.

I agree if Hitler had done so it would have been reported as both Hitler and Moelders were absolute media stars back in the day. Highly unlikely that this would have been done without press involvement.

[J. McCabe Bell]

How do you know it wasn't reported?

Have you seen all the contemporary newsreels?

Have you checked the archives?

Do you know how the goblet was conferred?

[chen]

Well, at least Hitler decided to use a silver 835 instead of cheaper Alpaka to dedicate this event.