Ball Hinge Glider

[Leroy]

Catch

[Leroy]

I would be happy to continue on the site suggested by Warlord, but I have difficuluty even figuring out how to post photos here! Maybe we could "transplant" back and forth.

[Leroy]

Just 1 more for clarification. In my post #85, it looks as though there is a "ridge" of some kind along the inner edge of the wreath on the left. It is not. It's just where the finish is worn.

[Leroy]

A little closer on the "real" eagle.

[90th Light]

I would be happy to continue on the site suggested by Warlord, but I have difficuluty even figuring out how to post photos here! Maybe we could "transplant" back and forth.

Excellent effort & idea Leroy and to the others who are contributing to this thread.

I too will have trouble posting on the other forum plus my wife will probably up and leave if I join yet another forum and spend even more time on internet Militaria.

Having enough trouble finding the time and keeping up with all the good stuff on this one,

Chris

p.s. Jeff V's advice about focusing on the manufacturers foot-prints of an original badge is absolutely the correct thing to do

[Tim Calvert]

This reminds me of the original Star Wars movie.
Since there were no black folk in it, the assumption was made that there were no black folk in the galaxy.

However when Empire Strikes Back came out, it only took one trip to Cloud City to prove that theory was wrong.

It seems our very own version of George Lucas (Stijn) has made many trips to Cloud City and beyond....but no Lando Calrissian so far!!!

Still going along with "Buy the item and not the story".

Here's one for Chris....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hlFcnkGY-o&NR=1

[Stijn David]

Ball Hinge glider

Hello,


@ Jeff, story's are indeed story's and they will always remain that. Nobody should feel like he has to defend himself but it is just the way it is. Some persons do believe in this badge, others do not.

Believing in this hobby is simply based upon a feeling you have, my gut feeling does say stay away from it and still does say so.

The assumption of Jeff as that i do walk over 1 night ice is rather wrong. It is not because a badge does surface in a vertans hands that i do accept it as original. I have run accros fakes amongts veterans (some even switched by friendly collectors who do think that the vet will never see it). For me cetrain badges are undoubtly original. Others, well more proof is needed, and to back that certain badge up there is pictural proof etc ... needed and above al more then 1 badge.

Iff you really do think that a German veteran had such things on his head to replace his earned awards back in 1946, 1947 etc ... then i do think that you are living in a dream world.

Many of these soldiers did find there homes simply destroyed, others where from the former German parts (now Poland, etc ...), others where only released in the late 1940's from Russian captivity, etc ..... and none of the soldiers i have met did care about these things. Iff you have a family etc .... and you need a house to get your dear ones to shelter in then you do not care about a replacement badge.

Iff badges where replaced they came quite often in the late 1960's and 70's when there was wealth again. And quite often it where simply originals (such as BSW, C.E.Junckers, etc ...) who where then exchanged.

I can also say this about what has written, indeed study as much as possible but do not go comparing a rare badge towards a very common award. Sure you will see similarity's but to understand the badge you have to get into the history of the badge, the men who earned it, etc .... and you will reach the most scientific possible result that is ever possible.

ANd this as far as i can comment on my research method as has been used.

As said before, it is up towards each of us to make up his mind. Untill more proof does turn up i think my point is clear.

Cordial greetings,

[90th Light]

Tim, you humor is not misplaced on this one both with the analogy you make with Star Wars in terms of the Ball hinged Glider being of pre-May 45 manufacturer and the state of the New Zealand armed forces. We often say here that if there is another world war then New Zealand will have run out of material by morning tea time on the first day. No worries however mate, we will just put a call through to our friends the Americans. Thats why nearly every time America has been at war since 1941 we have been there beside them more times than many other countries on earth. People win battles not machines but good machines help and Kiwis are willing soldiers, sailors & airmen to give the right machines too and get the job done.

Any way I digress, back to the Ball hinge glider. As I said to Stijn David, there is not much more I can added except to try and give people a full understanding of how I came across my badge. I know only too well that one should judge the item and not the story but the circumstances of how you get an item tells you something and the circumstances by which I got mine gets no better in this game. God strike me dead now if that Ball hinge glider badge had not been in the possession of that veteran since May 1945 until I got it in the 1980's.

Sorry to add so much emotion but I feel very strongly when something which is right is being declared wrong. That is pure injustice.

I know Stijn David has made a study over many years of this subject and he has spoken to 100 or more glider pilots but his sample is only a random one of convenience and is in no way a properly planed scientific sample reflecting a true cross section of the total population of pilots who were awarded the glider badge. Due to the short comings in his sample of pilots it is still possible that he may not have had anyone from the areas or the time when this badge was worn. His findings are only as good as the sample he used during his inquiry and how he quantified what he found.

Another thing which has puzzled me is how many of the glider pilots in Stijn's study still had their badges. Many of the German veterans who I have ever meet have either destroyed many of their items and uniforms or had them taken by those who captured them. Why were all these glider pilots able to keep their badges and why do they only seem to have one badge each ? Did they transfer their badge from tunic to tunic ? or are the badges which Stijn is seeing the award badge which was on their dress tunic left at home ? What did they have on their combat tunic and what were they wearing when taken prisoner ? There are many questions still unanswered and like all research it sometimes creates more questions than it answers.

Again, I repeat that I have a full respect for what Stijn has done in his study of this subject. He has broken new ground for sure but I am shocked that a badge which is real can be so easily declared a fake when that is not at all the case.

Still this thread may just pull some thing else out of the woodwork and hopefully put wrongs right,

Chris

This reminds me of the original Star Wars movie.
Since there were no black folk in it, the assumption was made that there were no black folk in the galaxy.

However when Empire Strikes Back came out, it only took one trip to Cloud City to prove that theory was wrong.

It seems our very own version of George Lucas (Stijn) has made many trips to Cloud City and beyond....but no Lando Calrissian so far!!!

Still going along with "Buy the item and not the story".

Here's one for Chris....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hlFcnkGY-o&NR=1

[WARLORD]

I am a little astounded by the refusal to accept that the badge is pre 1945. We have evidence of a Newzealand POW, returning with a piece - this is in the hands of Chris. Direct untarnished conection. Similarly I have with same, direct untarnished conection, an identical badge. This was taken May June 1945 from an Aire base in Northern Germany, by an RAF Squadren Leader. TWO BADGES, identical manufacture.

I have every respect for SD research, however that dose not prove that these badges are fake, copys what you will.

[Leroy]

If I could direct our focus back to the various badges posted in this thread, is there anything about any of them which says that they do not conform to accepted wartime badge manufacture techniques?

It seems to me that, regardless of source or belief, we should, collectively, be able just to look at these badges and make some observations about them, as we do all the time with other pieces shown here.

[Jeff V]

If I could direct our focus back to the various badges posted in this thread, is there anything about any of them which says that they do not conform to accepted wartime badge manufacture techniques?

It seems to me that, regardless of source or belief, we should, collectively, be able just to look at these badges and make some observations about them, as we do all the time with other pieces shown here.

There is nothing in these badges that one could point to as a feature of a post-war piece. In fact, it is just the opposite.
I would like to also mention that I have no axe to grind here. I do not own one of these badges and I have never owned one. I just don't like seeing what I firmly believe to be an original item declared a fake.
best wishes,
jeff

[Tim Calvert]

For the record, I personally am not declaring anything fake. I always try to keep an open mind and enjoy new discoveries.

However, the glider badge is pretty expensive these days. I own one beautiful Juncker. If I was to be in the market for a new badge...well imagine if I bought a ball hinge glider. WAF goes up in smoke 6 months later. I lose my job. I try to sell the BH Glider. All I can tell the prospective buyer is... "there were a couple of cool guys at a forum that said they got the same type of badge from vets".

So it's in no way an accusation that you guys are not honest.

This is a great thread because from now on there will be many of us paying more attention to any shots of glider badges in wear.

As far as possible makers, all I can add is...I own 3 fighter spange made by R.K. Although they are zinc, they appear to have a type of plating or almost galvanization over the zinc. So they don't bubble like typical zinc badges.

For those of you that have R.K badges esp, ground assault, take a look and see if they are bubbling similar to the BH gliders in the thread.

And Chris, I'm glad you mentioned "New Zealand will have run out of material by morning tea time on the first day"... 'cause the Aussies think they would have you beat by lunch! Ha Ha!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKQwTYEWkDU

Cheers,
T.C.

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

In addition to what Stijn has said about not finding any ball hinge directly from a vet or in period photographs, there is one bit of tangible evidence that points to these being possible reproductions. There have been known reproductions found with the same exact wreath, and possibly eagle. I will post a few here. All the ball hinge gliders I have seen posted in the past and handled at shows admittedly feel more well constructed and "period" than these fakes, but the fact that there are fakes with the same die characteristics cannot be overlooked and will cast futher suspicion on the ball hinge gliders.

First up is an unmarked one, with the same wreath and eagle. Hardware is totally different than the ball hinge, and looks like a modern reproduction
made from a modern alloy.

Tom

[Thomas Durante]

r

[Thomas Durante]

2nd, Osang marked. Bogus Osang mark and with crappy hardware. Wreath matches the ball hinge, eagle is a bit different.

T