Ball Hinge Glider

[Winston]

This is interesting.....did these ball hinge types ever surface with a Soldbuch,Urkunde or something like that coming with them?The story of liberated pieces seems a bit too thin to put any money in these versions IMO.Also it seems that at a ratio that these seem to be in collections there should be at least some photographic evidence for this version.And last I would like to say that I usuallly see the term originality out of question...when it usually is in question.

Just my thoughts....

[WARLORD]

Winston, your thoughts are interesting, "did these ball hinge types ever surface with a Soldbuch,Urkunde or something like that coming with them?"

The one I have did not come with Soldbuck or Citation, but it did come directly from the RAF Squadron Leader, who took it from a base in Northern Germany, that was taken over in May June 1945. When he parted with this and about 6 Flight clasps with pendants and Long service cross, he sold his Uniform Log books and decorations to Mr D Young. The gentlman was a dealer in RAF medals and memrobilia. Accredited to the RAF Accosiation. He sold it to me together with the Long service cross.

Thus, "The story of liberated pieces seems a bit too thin to put any money in these versions IMO." The evidence speaks for its self.

"Also it seems that at a ratio that these seem to be in collections there should be at least some photographic evidence for this version." Why should there be photographic evidence? I remember well the argument about the Commemorative Flyers badge. Did not exist. No photos in wear. One turned up about a year ago. With other documents and photos of the man. One could go on, the Snipers patch. The British Free Corp.

Again but a sugestion, these badges were produced and not needed and stayed in the Office. Or they were used but as identification pieces in the relavent Base office. We can not know for sure, more work has to be done. But the proof of being there in May 1945 exists. In Sleswick Holstien one or two bases were taken over by the RAF for evaluation of German Planes and other items. The first British jet fighter was also stationed there.

So your, "And last I would like to say that I usuallly see the term originality out of question...when it usually is in question." I would in this case chalenge.

If you are interested in seeing the planes being investigated, I will be very pleased to post them.

[Stijn David]

Glider ball hinge

Hello,


@ CHristopher:

The fact that you have never encountered a veteran with a badge, but as you describe dose not prove that the ball hinge type is post war.

So I posse a question for you, when were these badges produced?

I have indeed at this point never encountered a german glider veteran who had a ball hinge glider badge in his possesion.

When the ball hinge badge was produced? That is a question i can't answer.

@ Chris

I also fully respect your veteran and wish to say a big thank you towards him for his efforst he has done during the war in the cause of liberty !!!

I can't say at this point that i accept these ball hinge gliders as wartime originals wich where worn by glide rpilots. Evidence is lacking at this point for me and untill that turns up i stay away from it.

But that should not be a problem, iff you guys believe in these badges then that is offcoarse just as fine. The same go's for dealers who do sell them, fine but i can't give them thumbs up at this point of time.

For me there are only the following sure glider badges at this point:

* C.E.Juncker (Buntmetal, ZInk, marked and unmarked)
* BSW (Buntmetal, Marked and unmarked)
* Large eagle glider pilot badge (both rivitted and soldered eagle)
* MFP glider pilot badge
* Cloth versions

But also as said before, i do keep the mind open as we can never say never => mayby tommorow one of you guys can show a cristal clear picture with this one in wear?

Some badges are indeed deemed fake untill proove has been shown, the same was true on the large eagle glider. But i think there is no discussion anymore on that one?

Cordial greetings and thank you for the very interesting thread

[WARLORD]

SD, I think you have put this so well and in one way solves the mystery. "I can't say at this point that i accept these ball hinge gliders as wartime originals wich where worn by glide rpilots. Evidence is lacking at this point for me and untill that turns up i stay away from it. " I can agree with you on this point. However as we know, the examples in my hand and our NZ friend, prove that they are period. My sumation is they were never awarded. They are but examples. Produced and held. The one I have, I can now rember, was cased. Mr Young gave this away to a collector who showed some interest.

Thus, I would be happy to go with your research, that Glidder pilots had only the badges as described. These were just examples, never issuded. This would also explain the fact that none have been seen in wear.

[Leroy]

These badges have been copied and when I get home tonight I will try to show here a real one compared to the copy. One of the keys is the flat sides to the pin.

[90th Light]

I have to agree too that this is indeed a very interesting thread. Of all the items in my collection I never in my wildest dreams thought I would have to defend this one.

May be we should now start to put together a list of the facts we do have based on what my badge and Warlord's badge have in common;

Both badges were obtained from an LW base at the very end of war by an Allied serviceman who had access to some sort of particular store of LW awards.

Both badges came with LW fight clasps, many with hangers. These flight clasps were the late war zinc type. There were no buntmetal examples. Some of the makers on my clasps were Osang, BSW, RSS, others had no maker mark. (I await Warlords confirmation on this)

Both badges were from specific parts of Germany were British forces were (my veteran was liberated by British forces) but no such veteran find has yet emerged from an American source which surprises me. I wonder if any of our Russian members have run across one a veteran with one ?

Is there anything else I can add ?

Every thing seems to be pointing towards a late war badge and the challenge as I see it with finding photograpic evidence is two fold,

1/ we have to find a Glider pilot who got a badge late in the war yet we are told this did not happen after September 1944

2/ we have to find a picture of this late in the war glider pilot wearing this badge in what would be a late war photo which has one of the lowest possibilities of being found.

I have to say that at this stage in my mind after considering Stjin David's research that this badge seems to meet the criteria of some thing which the manufacturers continued to make just before or may be even after the orders were given to stop training glider pilots in September 1944. This possibility is not impossible and is something we have seen in other areas of Third Reich collecting.

I am not trying to blindly defend a fake badge here because I own one. Instead I am trying to make sure that a piece of real history is not lost. The people I got my badge from had no opportunity or reason to get a fake gilder and plant it amongst 19 other perfectly good late wartime flight badges & clasps. They were people who really went through this war but had reached a stage in their life were they were moving on. He had to go into care and she was moving into a far smaller easy to mange house. They were getting rid of surplus items they no longer had a need for and I was lucky enough to get these badges which I value very highly to this day.

Another interesting point in my case, is that I am not the only New Zealand collector who got some of these badges. There were six other finds of several badges & cuff titles that I know of. Some of these other finds were far bigger than mine. Please keep in mind that the LW base was looted and the badges brought back to the camp to be shared around. Seems the Kiwis did not miss the chance. Not all of these finds had glider badges amongst them however but there were other interesting finds which I did not get an example of such as the "Afrika" cuff titles on tightly woven linen which was a variation that a well know New Zealand author on DAK items had never seen before and has not seen very often since if at all. In fact that is another good example of an author who has done a lot of research with veterans, had never seen this variation and probably would have also had difficulty accepting it had he not been there on the day when they were obtained from the NZ veteran.

I hope others may now come forward upon reading this and share their veteran finds. Where are the Americans who must have got these on their motel buys ???

Chris

[WARLORD]

I would like to sugest that the discusion could be continude in this area http://stirnpanzer.com/forum/posting.php?mode=post&f=84

I can post pictures here and I think we could achieve some very interesting results. My very best

Warlord

[Jeff V]

Those who own one of these badges should not feel the need to defend it just because Stijn has not run into one in a vets hand. If he had found one in a vets hand I suspect it would be listed in the book. Which in and of itself proves absolutely nothing as the vet could have lost his badge in 1946 and replaced it in 1947. I can guarantee in his recollections that would be The Exact badge he was awarded (whether or not it was true). Far too much stock is put in what the veteran has in his posession today IMO.

If one studies ALL war badges instead of one particular badge, it is obvious that everything in this badge including hardware (hinge ,catch, pin), materials, and finish points to an original badge made before the end of ww2.

Stijn's research and book are excellent and I would heartily recommend it to anyone interested in the glider badge, however in this case it is far more beneficial to focus on the physical attributes of the badge.
best wishes,
jeff

[Leroy]

I promised this morning that I would post a version of this badge believed to be a copy and a "real one" (obtained by me from a vet at least 30 years ago...but we know vet acquisition isn't always a guarantee).

First up, the "real one". Height of wreath 55.90mm, width of eagle (wingtip to wingtip) 51.86mm, weight = 17.39 g.

[Leroy]

Reverse

[Leroy]

Hinge and pin. Pin, as with the others shown here, is flat on the sides.

[Leroy]

Catch

[Leroy]

Next, the supposed "copy". Height of wreath 55.52mm, width of eagle (wingtip to wingtip) 51.33mm, weight= 20.63g.

[Leroy]

Reverse

[Leroy]

Hinge and pin (pin round, not flat)