Ball Hinge Glider

[mgidhagen]

Pic 5

[mgidhagen]

Pic 6

[mgidhagen]

Pic 7

[Jeff V]

That is a good looking badge Mikael. Thanks for posting it. best wishes,
jeff

[90th Light]

Hello, I am bringing this thread back up to the top because a member has sent me a PM about some POW veteran brought back flight clasps which I got.

He was wanting to know more about where they came from. I also got several aircrew badges with the clasps including a ball- hinge glider pilot and explained where they came from in this thread. Hope this tells the member what he needs to know.

Having just re-read this again, do we now finally accept these ball-hinge examples as the fine originals which they are ?

Chris

[Gene]

Completely WW2 original

[Thomas Durante]

I think most collectors like them and have no problem at all with them (including me). However, it should be noted that the current authority on the subject, David Stijn still has an issue with them I believe. Don't want to speak for him though, maybe he will post his thoughts on this thread again.

Tom

[Leroy]

These are wartime badges.

[WARLORD]

I have a similar experience with the Glidder pilots badge. I sent photo and explanation to SD. My example was again with flight clasps and Long Service cross picked up by a Squadren Leader at a North German Airfield at the end of the war, when it was taken over by the RAF. These, together with his uniform and medal group were sold to David Young. He was a well respected dealer in RAF medals and memrobilia. He did not sell German material. I purchased the badge and Long service cross from him. If my memory serves me well it was cased, however he gave the case to another. Originality is not in question.

[Stijn David]

Glider badges

Hello,


I understand that most people who do own such a badge (or have owned one) are still believers in this particular glider pilot badge.

I for myself do still not count these as wartime badges as for the following reasons:

* Not one original wartime picture with this type in wear has surfaced
* In my over 100 German veterans i have visited i have not seen this type appear (always C.E.Juncker, BSW, Large eagle glider and untill this day 2 MFP badges, cloth badges, etc ..... ) .

Iff one does research these badges it is a very strange observation that only badges of the C.E.Juncker and the BSW company do surface with veterans. In the past a couple other pieces have surfaced from various company's such as Deumer, Assmann, etc .... but non of these did stand the trial.

Certainly private made badges do exist (see therefore my book in wich a prviously unknown badge is shown - English version page 130) but these are exceptions for sure.

Anyway, i do keep the mind open and iff i do find enough proof with the veterans who earned these things then i will gladly report. Untill today that has not been the case.

ANd always remember, iff you are happy with a certain badge. Then everything is fine as it is up towards each of us to be happy with the badges we have.

Cordial greetings,

[WARLORD]

I understand your thoughts, but if a badge is removed in 1945 from a Luftwaffe base, kept and then sold with other original related material, to a party, who then sells it direct to the now owner, how can this piece be challenged? This is the basis of arceollogy. Dug in the time line, supported by other artifacts of similar perriod. No cross contamination.

[90th Light]

Hello Stijn David,

I can see the point you make that not one German veteran who you have ever encountered had one of these ball hinged gliders and that does puzzle me because we do seem to have several British and allied servicemen who did or do have them and got them at the end of hostilities.

There must be a logical reason to explain this. I mean this is not a badge that collectors are trying to blindly defend and it is not a badge that turned up in the last ten years. These badges have been in collections of various sorts for the last 64 years at least.

My badge came from a widow in her seventies whose husband the former POW had gone into care and did not have long left on this earth. I do not think that this lady was making up a story and I do not think her husband had been passed off with a post war fake badge. In fact no one had looked at the badges much since the war but he had kept them together with his other items from that time carefully stored away.

Another thing to consider is that this is not all I got. All up I got about 20 badges from this lady so if the ball hinge glider is bad then the other badges must also be bad but trust me, they are not.

What we need to do now is look for the logical explanation such as;

these are not issue badges but replacement or second badge which could be obtained from a base store if one had the correct entry in one's Soldbuch

or//

the sample of Glider pilots which you have interviewed came from the parts of Germany supplied by other makers of the badge and you have not yet meet a veteran German pilot from the part of Germany where these badges were found.

or//

this particular badge was made in the mid to late war period and not many Glider pilots qualified or needed these badges any longer. They were made however but sat on the shelf.

On this badge, I am 100% sure it is original and I do not want to get into any debate which questions the memory of a returned New Zealand soldier who served his country plus the call of his empire and paid the price with his health in his later years as is so often the case for those taken prisoner.

The badge is real, the question is why no German veterans have them yet Allied veterans do ???

With respect, Chris

Hello,


I understand that most people who do own such a badge (or have owned one) are still believers in this particular glider pilot badge.

I for myself do still not count these as wartime badges as for the following reasons:

* Not one original wartime picture with this type in wear has surfaced
* In my over 100 German veterans i have visited i have not seen this type appear (always C.E.Juncker, BSW, Large eagle glider and untill this day 2 MFP badges, cloth badges, etc ..... ) .

Iff one does research these badges it is a very strange observation that only badges of the C.E.Juncker and the BSW company do surface with veterans. In the past a couple other pieces have surfaced from various company's such as Deumer, Assmann, etc .... but non of these did stand the trial.

Certainly private made badges do exist (see therefore my book in wich a prviously unknown badge is shown - English version page 130) but these are exceptions for sure.

Anyway, i do keep the mind open and iff i do find enough proof with the veterans who earned these things then i will gladly report. Untill today that has not been the case.

ANd always remember, iff you are happy with a certain badge. Then everything is fine as it is up towards each of us to be happy with the badges we have.

Cordial greetings,

[Stijn David]

Glider badge

Hello,


It does stay a interesting subject for sure. And i would like to learn more but at this point i do stick towads my observations.

It is very interesting that one does try to find explanations but explanations are not scientifical correct and just guesses. In such ways tales do start to live.

For example it is utopia that every Lw. base had several badges if a certain badge was lost. In the case of the Lw. glider pilots badge and you had need for a new one you had to get one through offical ways.

The same is absolutely not correct in stating that certain suppliers only supplied certain parts of Germany. It did not work that way. You only had a few glider schools wich where able to teach new glider pilots.

These schools did fill then up the needed forms to get a certain ammount of badges and award documents and these forms where sent towards Berlin. Berlin did then make the needed award documents (hence the numbering on these documents) and did sent the documents togheter with a bacth of awards towards the gldier school. There these badges where awarded.

The glider schools did not had stocks of these badges, i have this confirmed by the former Adjudant from the Erg.Gr.(S) 2 based at Posen. (one of the glider schools).

In my quest i have visited German veterans from all known glider schools, from all over Germany, Austria, even Spain, Switzerland, wherever you can find them etc... and non of them had a badge as shown here (read Ball hinge glider).

It has absolutely no economical use to produce certain badges iff there is no wartime need anymore for them. In September 1944 all glider schools where disbanded. So all training capacity did stop. So no badges where awarded anymore, certainly not in group quantity => the possibility does exist that a straggler did get one later one but that is a theory also.

In this logic based upon facts then the Ball hinges should have been produced before september 1944. But why do they never pop up at this point with a glider pilot? That is certainly a fact that can't be denied.

Fact is that they are present amongst the collector community. Some of you guys have one and some of these badges have a good prehistory (read liberated by a certain veteran) .

And be sure, i do not accept them at this point of time, but iff i encounter such badges with glider pilots still alive or i do find conclusive (and recognizable) foto material where this one is in wear i will happily share it. The same is true, feel free to share photmaterial of these badges in wear and we can exchange toughts further on it.

Cordial greetings and with the very same respect for you guys

[WARLORD]

I read what you say, but if the piece was obtained in May 1945, proof of it being there, how can you think it is not a War time produced badge? I have another situation were a whole collection of Naval awards to include a Cholm shield were returned from a German Naval base at Kiel. The provanance of these is rock solid. They were held as examples of Naval awards. There were a compleat set of Naval Chaplains badge, from lowest to highest. What need was there for these on a Naval base.

The fact that you have never encountered a veteran with a badge, but as you describe dose not prove that the ball hinge type is post war.

So I posse a question for you, when were these badges produced?

[90th Light]

Hello Stijn David,

it is not my intention to question your findings in any way. You have done a sterling job on this subject and rightfully deserved the respect of every collector with an interest in these.

All I would ask is that you would stop saying with certainty that these ball hinge glider badges are fake. They are not. There is an unexplained mystery for sure but they are an original pre-May 45 item.

Please count my badge as one you can rely upon and please be inspired to get to the bottom of this. I am so certain of how right these are that I know one day you are going to come across some thing which is going to make you re-think this one.

Until we reach that day there is not much more I can add except to say I respect you work but please do not give up on this one. They are 100% real and of pre-May 45 manufacture.

Best regards, Chris

p.s. the New Zealand veteran who brought my ball hinge glider badge back from the war is no tale. He was a man who went to war for the freedom of others and this badge was one of the silent sentinels which he had to show for that.

Hello,


It does stay a interesting subject for sure. And i would like to learn more but at this point i do stick towads my observations.

It is very interesting that one does try to find explanations but explanations are not scientifical correct and just guesses. In such ways tales do start to live.

For example it is utopia that every Lw. base had several badges if a certain badge was lost. In the case of the Lw. glider pilots badge and you had need for a new one you had to get one through offical ways.

The same is absolutely not correct in stating that certain suppliers only supplied certain parts of Germany. It did not work that way. You only had a few glider schools wich where able to teach new glider pilots.

These schools did fill then up the needed forms to get a certain ammount of badges and award documents and these forms where sent towards Berlin. Berlin did then make the needed award documents (hence the numbering on these documents) and did sent the documents togheter with a bacth of awards towards the gldier school. There these badges where awarded.

The glider schools did not had stocks of these badges, i have this confirmed by the former Adjudant from the Erg.Gr.(S) 2 based at Posen. (one of the glider schools).

In my quest i have visited German veterans from all known glider schools, from all over Germany, Austria, even Spain, Switzerland, wherever you can find them etc... and non of them had a badge as shown here (read Ball hinge glider).

It has absolutely no economical use to produce certain badges iff there is no wartime need anymore for them. In September 1944 all glider schools where disbanded. So all training capacity did stop. So no badges where awarded anymore, certainly not in group quantity => the possibility does exist that a straggler did get one later one but that is a theory also.

In this logic based upon facts then the Ball hinges should have been produced before september 1944. But why do they never pop up at this point with a glider pilot? That is certainly a fact that can't be denied.

Fact is that they are present amongst the collector community. Some of you guys have one and some of these badges have a good prehistory (read liberated by a certain veteran) .

And be sure, i do not accept them at this point of time, but iff i encounter such badges with glider pilots still alive or i do find conclusive (and recognizable) foto material where this one is in wear i will happily share it. The same is true, feel free to share photmaterial of these badges in wear and we can exchange toughts further on it.

Cordial greetings and with the very same respect for you guys