Ball Hinge Glider

[Jeff V]

Excellent discussion friends! This is what I was hoping for. That we would be able to share the merits of the badge. I am with Skip on this, I have always liked these badges and believed them to be original. The hardware and finishing I believe are wartime, however those rivets do look awful.
David- I did not realize that you had visited that many veterans. And not one badge to be found, very strange I have to admit.
For the gentleman that got his badge from the veteran, could you please elaborate. Was the german pilot in the POW camp? Was your veteran a guard? Location of the camp? Time he recieved the badge? I would like to be able to rule out that these were produced just after the war for GI's.
Hopefully we can get to the bottom of this. best wishes,
jeff

[Stijn David]

ball hinge glider

Hi Jeff,


Thank you, indeed very strange that no Ball hinge was to be found at this stage.

As for the interest of this thread, from the 53 veterans who still had their badges i can add the following on how it was devided between C.E.Juncker and BSW pieces:

Total vets with badges : 53

C.E.Junckers : 24

BSW : 29

Then i can add also that 2 of named vets (of the total of 53) with badges had a large eagle variant and only 1 still had the woven version as an extra.

Cordial greetings,

[Jeff V]

Thank you David for those numbers! What was the breakdown between each maker Buntmetal or Zinc? best wishes,
jeff

[Stijn David]

glider badges

Hello Jeff,


Well the breakdown does give the following vieuw:

1) C.E.Juncker - total: 24

1.A) Buntemetal: 18 (75 %)

1.B) Zink: 6 (25 %)

2. BSW - total: 29

2.A) Buntmetal: 29 (100 %)

As for the 2.A.'s the following can be said => i have encountered at least 2 different metaltypes for these badges, so these metals also changed and both where however what we do call "Buntmetal" pieces.

The numbers are however relativ, as a few remarks can be made directly from my side. The early awarded ones (periode - beginning awarding towards sept. 1941) seemed to have received the C.E.Juncker - Buntmetal pieces.

Later awardings seemed to go more into the direction of the BSW pieces with a slightly period that both where awarded.

The the Zink pieces do start to pop up arround 1943 and in at least one case it is a replacement badge for a lost original while in Tunesia 1943). That person did obtain it again after healed from his wounds at the end of 1943.

More can be said but then again who would buy my book once it is published

Cordial greetings,

[Jeff V]

Thank you David! I look forward to your book! best wishes,
jeff

[Frank Heukemes]

I would like to be able to rule out that these were produced just after the war for GI's.

Dear Jeff,

That would be very unrealistic, creating a NEW die and design right after the war for GIs?

[Jeff V]

Dear Jeff,

That would be very unrealistic, creating a NEW die and design right after the war for GIs?

I totally agree Frank! I would just like to put that theory to rest! best wishes,
jeff

[robert60446]

I would like to be able to rule out that these were produced just after the war for GI's.
Hopefully we can get to the bottom of this. best wishes,
jeff

Jeff,
We have to remember one thing here; after the war Gablonz was in Russians hands, all the German citizens were subject of expulsions and Ethnic Cleansing by the Communist Soviet Union. I think the last thing on these badges makers heads was to keep making badges for Russian GI’s who didn’t give a crap about buying them anyway, trust me on this…

[90th Light]

Hello again, at the risk of being the only collector in the world who seems to have a veteran example of one of these ball-hinge gliders.
I have to say that Stijn David is 100% wrong on this one.

These badges were made pre-May 1945. Mine was obtained in May 1945 by a New Zealand soldier who was in a German prisoner of war camp. The Germans up and went. The prisoners were left to their own devices to look after them-selves until the Allies arrived.

They organised some groups to go and find food. In the course of this search they checked out an LW base close by and raided the stores. A blanket was filled with LW flight-clasps and qualification badges. This was carried back to the POW camp with other items and dumped down on the ground. Any-one who wanted some could help themselves.

The NZ veteran I got mine from had 20 different badges. I am not the only NZ collector who got one of these POW hoards, there were several. In fact an advertisement was put in the New Zealand prisoner of war association magazine to make contact with all who were in this Stalag. In the hoard of 20 badges I got was one of these ball-hinge gliders.

When I get a chance I will go back through my papers and check the notes I made when I got the badges in 1987. I will be able to tell you the Stalag number and the name of the LW base where they were found and which part of Germany it was.

The other good news is that two of the other New Zealand collectors who got alot of these badges from several of these New Zealand prisoners of war wrote an article all about it for the POW association magazine so the find of these badges has been documented. I will also find the exact details of that article so others can read about this piece of history.

I have been accused in the past on this forum of defending variations from the norm and it looks like I am doing this again except on this one I am certain and any-one who says these badges is wrong is a commiting a crime against history.

With respect to all who are debating this, Chris

[Jeff V]

Thank you Chris for this information. I look forward to any more info you can dig up.

Robert- I must have missed something. Do you have information that these were made in Gablonz? I thought the maker was unknown.

I don't believe that these badges were made after ww2 for any countries soldiers. Because of the way the zinc bubbled the plating, for me there was only 2 possible scenarios:
1. made during ww2
2. Made soon after the war- highly unlikely.

Chris' reports should help to clear up that the badges were made during ww2.
best wishes,
jeff

[robert60446]

Robert- I must have missed something. Do you have information that these were made in Gablonz? I thought the maker was unknown.

Jeff,
Yes, IMO these badges were made in Gablonz.

[Thomas Durante]

Is it so normal that badges would have been produced in a much larger quantity iff a certain badge was not even awarded anymore, so there was no more need to award it? (that does econmicly make no sense at all iff youa sk me, certainly not in a economy where every bit of metal etc ... was needed at a certain point to produce armour, etc ..)

Hi guys,

I too like the ball hinge glider, nothing jumps out at me to say "fake". All the points Frank states I agree with and I am with Skip on the rivets. Those rivets were the only thing that I can point to that are odd. With the exception of Frank's example, the other 2 posted seem that the rivets are not very secure on the reverse.

As far as Stijn's quote above, there are documented occassions where over production was noted. In Dorr's book on the CCC, he notes that the Gold CCC was way over estimated and that over 14,000 gold CCCs were to be converted to the silver class . I understand that this was a combat and not a qualification award, but you would still have documented evidence in the way of unit combat reports, etc. to estimate how many gold CCCs will need to be awarded in the coming up year.

I think it does make economic sense to produce a lot more badges than you need at that moment so that you have a stock for future orders. You see this a lot in business today. I'm would imagine that Frank probably only knew about 200 to 300 people who wanted to buy his GAB book before it came out, but he probably ordered 1,000 or so to save on printing costs and the hassle of ordering 50 books at a time.

By the way, great job on meeting with 78 glider pilots!! That is quite an accomplishment and I bet a great experience for you.

Tom D.

[Jeff V]

Jeff,
Yes, IMO these badges were made in Gablonz.

Robert, do you feel RK was the maker of these? best wishes,
jeff

[robert60446]

Robert, do you feel RK was the maker of these? best wishes,
jeff

Jeff,
We can only speculate at this point, better hinge pictures may give us more clues, but even then it will be more like taking calculated guess then be sure for 100%. For now I think we should be happy with narrowing our search for possible maker to the Gablonz area...

[Jeff V]

Jeff,
We can only speculate at this point, better hinge pictures may give us more clues, but even then it will be more like taking calculated guess then be sure for 100%. For now I think we should be happy with narrowing our search for possible maker to the Gablonz area...

OK
best wishes,
jeff