Pilotbadge..,which one ?

[Tim Calvert]

Both C.E. Juncker and JMME & Sohn were from Berlin SW 68.

Some questions I've always had:

How big was the Juncker shop?

Was this address a manufacturing shop, or just the outlet?

Was the die forging process done on site?

If not, then the "machinery" and forging were done in a more industrial setting.

If that's the case, did Juncker own the machinery, dies, etc., or did another separate company provide parts to Juncker, JMME and Deumer?

Recently, we saw pictures of an elderly gentleman putting together Knight's Crosses, EK I's, etc. I wonder if this was done above or behind the store front, or off site?

Could you walk right into JMME & Sohn or Juncker and pick out a badge of your choice (after showing your document of course!), or were these simply distribution centers with no shop window??

If you lived in Aachen, I'm sure there was an outlet there and you could go in and pick the badge that appealled to you most. Might be a BSW, a Juncker, B&NL, etc. I wonder if an outlet was an "Authorized Dealer" and only sold certain brand names?

Any ideas?

When you assume, it makes an ASS out of "U" & "U"

UU

;-)

[robert60446]

Was the die forging process done on site?

If not, then the "machinery" and forging were done in a more industrial setting.

If that's the case, did Juncker own the machinery, dies, etc., or did another separate company provide parts to Juncker, JMME and Deumer?

Tim,
To be honest with you, I think that “bare bone” eagles were made by some 3rd party company and Juncker, Deumer and JMME were just running assembly lines with their own finishing. This could be the explanation to why they were using only “stamped” maker marks and why these maker marks where not part of the reverse die...

[mmiller]

(I deleted my narrative and am going to bed.) Drove 600 miles today, and my eyesight is cooked. Here are some images to peruse.

Mark

A question,Mark....,not a questionmark...

What do you think about the nickle versus tombak question,Mark ?

About the 68...,once there was a switch to feinzink/kriegsmetal and the 68 mark was introduced...
Could it have been that some buntmetal badges were stamped with that mark first ?
I've seen a few stamps in buntmetal badges..,I don't know what to think..,those badges looked rather good..
I know,some don't like the stamp at all,this makes it more complicated..

Jos.

DOUBLE MARKED BUNTMETAL BADGE WITH SW68 MAKERMARK.






A ZINK SW68 JUNCKER Pilot's Badge (courtesy of ERIC S).




A CLOSE-UP OF THE LATE WAR SW68 MM ON A ZINC AG BADGE (courtesy of TYANACEK).

[Indy]

Hey Tim, Thx

The address is a good point. Paul Meybauer's address was SW68, too. I just checked LCD list, JMME was not on it. We can get address information from LDO numbers but not Prasidialkanzlei Numbers. By the way, could a pilot bring his document to purchase another badge?...like EKs. So, I guess if they could buy some replace badges, they just could buy badges from LDO stores, right? Since the badges were from LDO stores, did they have different marks? For example, the issued Junker EK1 was marked"2", and private purchased EK1 was marked L/12. From this, can we assume that issued Junker PB was marked without SW, and private purchased Jumker PB was marked with SW68. Just my guess

KR
Indy

[Jeff V]

Hey Tim, Thx

The address is a good point. Paul Meybauer's address was SW68, too. I just checked LCD list, JMME was not on it. We can get address information from LDO numbers but not Prasidialkanzlei Numbers. By the way, could a pilot bring his document to purchase another badge?...like EKs. So, I guess if they could buy some replace badges, they just could buy badges from LDO stores, right? Since the badges were from LDO stores, did they have different marks? For example, the issued Junker EK1 was marked"2", and private purchased EK1 was marked L/12. From this, can we assume that issued Junker PB was marked without SW, and private purchased Jumker PB was marked with SW68. Just my guess

KR
Indy

Hi Indy, Maybe the cross guys can clarify this but I believe a number of issued RK's were L/12 marked. Rudel's comes to mind right away. He said he only got one cross and it was an L/12. I don't believe your theory, but that does not mean I have any answers! best wishes,
jeff

[Jeff V]

Mark, it is interesting to me how the late sw 68 makermark matches so well from the 2 zinc badges shown and the double marked buntmetal. They look identical to my eyes. I guess not all buntmetal late makermark juncker's are fake. This style makermark always worried me because I thought the fakers would be able to duplicate it a lot easier than the earlier style.
jeff

[Indy]

I don't believe your theory, but that does not mean I have any answers! best wishes,
jeff

hahahaha Jeff

I don't believe, either. It was my brain storm, and now I get a headache.

KR
Indy

[Lorenzo Brown]

Since we are speculating as to the origins of the "IMME" and "JMME" marked bages and their relationship to Juncker...here is my theory:

I believe that at the outset, JMME & Sohn contracted with Juncker to make the badge and mark it "IMME". These Juncker-made badges bear the traditional Juncker finish, rivets, hinge and catch and are marked "IMME".

Later, JMME & Sohn bought the dies from Juncker and manufactured the badges themselves. The "JMME"-marked badges were of silver buntmetal and have the typical JMME hinge, rivets and catch.

One might wonder why Juncker would make a badge or sell their dies to another firm.I believe the answer is that , as part of their economic development strategy for Germany, there were "caps" or limitations on the number of Government orders that could be placed with any one manufacturing firm. The idea was to spread the wealth, very similar to what many governments do today.

Juncker was a prolific badge maker and would have easily reached their contract limits. Having reached their "cap", Juncker would now have
excess capacity to make more badges, but the Reich wouldn't contract any more. So, Juncker sub-contracted out to JMME & Sohn. Now they can utilize their excess manufacturing capability.

I think the first "IMME" -marked badges were made by Juncker under these conditions. The later "JMME" badges were made by JMME & Sohn with Juncker dies.

If you subscribe to this theory, then it is concievable that Juncker had some extra badges marked "IMME" in its inventory as a result of over production to meet the contract to JMME & Sohn. Sometime later...after the new "SW68" mark was introduced....Juncker then "over-stamped" the IMME badges with its own logo and put the badges back into the Juncker supply stream.

Just a theory...but it makes sense to me. <!-- / message -->

[Jeff V]

Sounds good Lorenzo . I wish I could look at the double stamp badge in person just to verify that the juncker mark was stamped over the IMME. Would be easy to tell. From the pic I can't be sure. best wishes,
jeff

[Indy]

hi Lorenzo
Your theory sounds good to me

Kr
Indy

[Lorenzo Brown]

Sounds good Lorenzo . I wish I could look at the double stamp badge in person just to verify that the juncker mark was stamped over the IMME. Would be easy to tell. From the pic I can't be sure. best wishes,
jeff

Er..uh..yeah. If the "IMME" mark was overlaid on the "SW68" mark...that would tend to turn my entire theory to sh1t!!

I agree. It would be nice to see the badge in hand.

[mmiller]

It looks (not 100% though) as if the IMME mark is over the Juncker mark. That does tend to upset the chronological applecart.

Mark

[NORE]

Juncker was a prolific badge maker and would have easily reached their contract limits. Having reached their "cap", Juncker would now have
excess capacity to make more badges, but the Reich wouldn't contract any more. So, Juncker sub-contracted out to JMME & Sohn. Now they can utilize their excess manufacturing capability.

Hi,
very interesting topic! I have read it through and it all sounded straight,but I have a slight understanding problem with the above.How will Juncker utilize excess capacity by SUB-CONTRACTING part of their contracts to someone else? This doesn´t change the cap at all.Only Juncker has more excess capacity.Or is it to be understood the other way around,Juncker taking contracts from Imme that is?

[Lorenzo Brown]

Well, it would certainly be best if we had the badge in-hand. Even though the picture is not the best. I see more areas that indicate that the Juncker "SW68" mark was applied over the IMME mark. You can see defining "outline" areas of the Juncker mark that wouldn't be visible if the IMME mark had been applied over the Juncker mark.

I can see more areas where the Juncker mark is "cutting into" the IMME mark rather than the other way around. I have circled just a few of those areas, but there are more.

[Lorenzo Brown]

Hi,..... This doesn´t change the cap at all.Only Juncker has more excess capacity.Or is it to be understood the other way around,Juncker taking contracts from Imme that is?

Yes...that's what I meant. Although the Reich would not accept more contracts from Juncker since Juncker had reachd its maximum...the Reich would accept contracts from JMME. Juncker would then make the badges and sell them to JMME, who would then sell them to the Reich under their own contract.