Sawfish patches/small battle units

[John R.]

To bring this discussion "full circle", I noticed the same type of patch that started off this thread, deemed reproduction, which sold in 2013 for 600 Euro, has just sold for 550 Euro now. I guess nothing was learned from all this other than the market hasn't changed much...

Norm, IMO WAF members, especially serious members (by that I mean a member who actually reads the posts) have always been less than 1% of all collectors of TR militaria. Maybe far less.

Authors, those that study each variation, create tables of reference for collectors, such a small minority of that 1% it is almost not detectable to even establish a percentage.

So it is no mystery why questionable artifacts keep selling in spite of the huge advances we have made in the area of KM warbadges over the last 15 years.

Somebody reads a book about an elite unit like the small battle unit and then they stumble across a website selling a patch advertised as period. That buyer has no idea of the minefield (no pun intended to your area Norm) into which they have sailed.

John

[Norm F]

Let me try to recap this last posted example.

We "consider" it a reproduction since there are 7 vertical denticles in each example. To be considered period, we are speculating based on our study that acceptable versions have 6 vertical denticles and a 7th backwards sloping denticel.

John

Hi John,

Like you say, there are 7 denticles in the "correct" version, i.e. the type with provenance from wartime groupings and from the Danish museum. There is also a type with 6 denticles which is of almost identical construction which is why some (like Ludwig) think the 6-denticle verison could well be period, but they're not the type with provenance.

The ones from the vendor site in my last post (which is the type that Ludwig started this thread about) also have 7 denticles (like the "accepted" type) but like you say the denticles are slightly different in shape. But more importantly, the stitching pattern overall is quite different from the "accepted" type and they are always minty fresh and lack any provenance --- hence they cannot be considered period.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

another comparison

[Norm F]

... the stitching pattern overall is quite different from the "accepted" type and they are always minty fresh and lack any provenance --- hence they cannot be considered period.

Furthermore, the same type is shown in this thread where it is said to be a 1980's product from Richard Herre:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=818225

Best regards,
---Norm

[John R.]

Some paper for sale on the latest (Jan 5, 2015) update for interest.

John

[John R.]

2

[Norm F]

As a collecting community, we cannot say the "6-tooth" variant has any provenance (to date). It's just that Ludwig included one of them in his initial postings of dealer-listed "originals", but no provenance has yet come forth. So until more evidence appears we should not consider that variant to be wartime produced.

Here's an update to this topic. I came across this old Hermann Historica auction listing from 2011 of a grouping for Ernst Burgemann which includes a Soldbuch entry for the Bewährungsabzeichen and interestingly the "6-tooth" variant of proficiency patch -- the first time yet that we've seen any provenance for this variant.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

closeups. Taken at face value this would seem to be an important grouping.

[Norm F]

But I also found this other grouping from a 2013 HH auction for a sailor named Hans Ruiner. This one includes all four levels of patch in embroidered gold bullion - something which generally we would have called post-war. And his Soldbuch doesn't mention any such award.

So sometimes it's kind of hard to accept a grouping on face value.

[Norm F]

The patches and Hans Ruiner's Soldbuch award entries -- no mention of the Kleinkampfsabzeichen, and the patches are suspect. They look very similar to the Sedlatzek patches discussed here: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru....php?p=5981134

[NOR_collector]

All the badges that has been shown here is machine stitched, but what about hand stitched badges? I know it does not match any of the "originals", but could there be an accepted difference between the hand stitched and machine stitched like one can see on the trade patches, or is this just one of many fakes that are out there?

Best regards,
André

[Norm F]

Hi André,

As you know, these awards were instituted in late 1944 and they weren't even described in Deutsche Uniformen-Zeitschrift until the January 1945 issue. There was hardly time left for an "official" production (which certainly would have been machine made) let alone a private purchase hand-stitched version. Also, there's no record of a Level 4 patch even being awarded as far as I know, so there was no significant wartime market for these things.

We've certainly seen that style of patch before that you show with the "lightning bolt" denticles instead of the usual "saw-tooth". It comes in various grades and for what it's worth both Gordon Williamson and Detlev Niemann in the past were of the opinion that these were fake.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Here's something unusual from Weitze's update. It's a hand embroidered version of the candidate's patch. We've never seen such a thing posted before and without provenance there's not a lot else one can say.

[Michel]

Hello All,
At the request of French Volunter closeup picture of the badge mounted on a collani bought in the Kassel show several years ago.
Perfect collani for a low price.
Best regards.
Michel

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