Sawfish patches/small battle units

[Jeff V]

I think Ludwig makes a very reasonable point here that's worth restating. Considering these patches were awarded so late in the war and to so few people, it seems unlikely that there would be multiple makers, and so far at least, the few examples with provenance of sorts conform to a single type of production. It also stands to reason that there would be unworn leftovers at the war's end. Clearly the proficiency badges (the most likely to be needed at first) are not that rare.

Best regards,
---Norm

There is another possibility. Lacking the swastika, the makers of the patch just continued making them long after the war ended. How would we know? For the very small number of people who qualified for the patch there is an awful lot of them on dealer sites 70 years after the war.

[Norm F]

There is another possibility. Lacking the swastika, the makers of the patch just continued making them long after the war ended. How would we know? For the very small number of people who qualified for the patch there is an awful lot of them on dealer sites 70 years after the war.

That's not so much another possibility as an extension of the same scenario. One wartime maker with no reason for him to stop post-war. Other makers jump on the bandwagon post-war with their own versions. A very plausible scenario.

As usual, one is back to wanting provenance for any example with a high price tag.

Best regards,
---Norm

[90th Light]

Equally, one could argue that a sufficient stock of these badges was made before May 1945 and not issued.

The unit was in the process of being expanded before the wars end so the need to make the badges existed.

On the other hand this was not a badge which had much interest or appeal after the war was over. Many allied soldiers would have no idea what it was or who they were. The good money was in making KC's, pilot badges & uniforms and selling them to the GI's. In 1945 you would be lucky to get even a very low price for what looks to be nothing more than a KM trade badge.

IMO the "original" types that Helmut Weitze and Kia Winkler have for sale today are unissued stock made before May 1945. A part from these two dealers, very few other dealers ever have one for sale let alone two. Helmut & Kia have picked up a shop hoard of unissued ones at some stage,

Chris

[John R.]

More discussion on pricing and other versions:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=564183

John

[Norm F]

In addition we've seen three examples of the "6-tooth" variant, none with provenance.

Best regards,
---Norm

More discussion on pricing and other versions:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=564183

John

The other thread that John linked to also shows a fourth example of the "6-tooth" variant proficiency badge. Again no provenance, but it's clear to see that this wasn't a "one-off" defective version of the usual "7-tooth" type since they keep popping up.

Best regards,
---Norm

[John R.]

The other thread that John linked to also shows a fourth example of the "6-tooth" variant proficiency badge. Again no provenance, but it's clear to see that this wasn't a "one-off" defective version of the usual "7-tooth" type since they keep popping up.

Best regards,
---Norm

OK, I am back to where I started on the 6 tooth type. It is not a machine mistake/variant of a 7-tooth type. It is totally different. There is no machine error with these.

Where is the provenance on this type?

We indicated earlier the probability was one maker, who I assume, made the 7 tooth type. Why are we saying the 6 tooth type is also one with provenance, as much as we can associate with this version?

John

[John R.]

From Norm's earlier post:

Three examples with provenance of sorts, establishing the so-called "acceptable" type:
1) one Proficiency badge purportedly from Kapitänleutnant Meissner but from a grouping that has passed through several dealers.
2) one Level 1 badge shown in "The Kriegsmarine Awards" (obverse only)
3) one Level 3 badge from the Danish Armoury Museum
All of these show the same 7-tooth sawfish with similar stitch patterns, bobbin thread and backgrounds.

Also posted in this thread so far we've seen the following tally of "accepted" examples, with or without provenance:
1) 6 of the "accepted" proficiency badge,
2) one Level 1 (the worn one with provenance) and
3) three Level 3 patches

In addition we've seen three examples of the "6-tooth" variant, none with provenance.

So where is the evidence that the 6 tooth type has a chance at being period?

John

[Norm F]

OK, I am back to where I started on the 6 tooth type. It is not a machine mistake/variant of a 7-tooth type. It is totally different. There is no machine error with these.

Where is the provenance on this type?

We indicated earlier the probability was one maker, who I assume, made the 7 tooth type. Why are we saying the 6 tooth type is also one with provenance, as much as we can associate with this version?

John

Hi John,

As a collecting community, we cannot say the "6-tooth" variant has any provenance (to date). It's just that Ludwig included one of them in his initial postings of dealer-listed "originals", but no provenance has yet come forth. So until more evidence appears we should not consider that variant to be wartime produced.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Equally, one could argue that a sufficient stock of these badges was made before May 1945 and not issued.

The unit was in the process of being expanded before the wars end so the need to make the badges existed.

On the other hand this was not a badge which had much interest or appeal after the war was over. Many allied soldiers would have no idea what it was or who they were. The good money was in making KC's, pilot badges & uniforms and selling them to the GI's. In 1945 you would be lucky to get even a very low price for what looks to be nothing more than a KM trade badge.

IMO the "original" types that Helmut Weitze and Kia Winkler have for sale today are unissued stock made before May 1945. A part from these two dealers, very few other dealers ever have one for sale let alone two. Helmut & Kia have picked up a shop hoard of unissued ones at some stage,

Chris

Hi Chris,

It's fine to have that opinion but it's really just a matter of faith at this point. We know KdK veterans had reunions, some retired, others in the Bundesmarine, so there would be a legitimate vet market for these after the war, just as there was for all veterans for other types of awards. If I was a vet wanting a replacement my first instinct would be to ask the company that made them in wartime if they were still around.

After the 57-forms came out, there were lots of '57s made despite a relatively small market so production isn't limited to "sexy" items commanding high prices. And sawfish patches could have been made to satisfy a need before 1957 since they had no swastika.

Best regards,
---Norm

[90th Light]

The other thread that John linked to also shows a fourth example of the "6-tooth" variant proficiency badge. Again no provenance, but it's clear to see that this wasn't a "one-off" defective version of the usual "7-tooth" type since they keep popping up.

Best regards,
---Norm

They could all be from the same production run Norm,

they did not just stop the machines after one was made. That whole run on that day at that time would have had that enbroidered fault.

Here is a thread a FJR cloth jump badge with the same sort of problem;

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=675021&page=2

Chris

[Norm F]

Hi Chris,

Maybe. Takes a leap of faith though. We need examples with provenance to support that theory.

Best regards,
---Norm

[90th Light]

Hi Chris,

It's fine to have that opinion but it's really just a matter of faith at this point. We know KdK veterans had reunions, some retired, others in the Bundesmarine, so there would be a legitimate vet market for these after the war, just as there was for all veterans for other types of awards. If I was a vet wanting a replacement my first instinct would be to ask the company that made them in wartime if they were still around.

After the 57-forms came out, there were lots of '57s made despite a relatively small market so production isn't limited to "sexy" items commanding high prices. And sawfish patches could have been made to satisfy a need before 1957 since they had no swastika.

Best regards,
---Norm

I see what you are saying Norm, about the German veterans after the war and that is also a possibility.

However, for some reason the older collectors and collections have always had or accepted the "original" type. This goes right back for as long as I have known about this badge and even further back.

May be the type that Carsten Baldes sold is the post-war remake for the veterans after the war ??? .

When you think about it, that would make sense and explain the differences in the embroidering. Also the type which Carsten sold has a tighter embroidered thread which is often a sign of the improved, efficient post machines being used to make these badges.

As I understand it, they did not make this badge officially after the war as part of the 1957 series ?

Chris

[John R.]

And while we discuss these patches, a footnote from WW2 this date:

The son of Captain Hans Langsdorff, Joachim, was listed as missing on 20 December 1945 and later declared as killed.

6 years to the day that his father committed suicide in Buenos Aires after scuttling Graf Spee.

More on the son:

The Biber 90 is one of 324 Bibers built for K-Force in 1944. It was built in three sections bolted together, with the rear section holding the 32 hp Opel-Blitz Otto automobile engine. The engine gave a surface range of 100 nautical miles at 6.5 knots and the three torpedo battery troughs Type 13 T 210 and a 13 hp electric torpedo motor gave a submerged range of 8.6 nautical miles at 5.3 knots plus 8 nautical miles at 2.5 knots. Armament comprised two G 7e electric torpedoes or two mines. It was one of three Bibers launched from the canal at Hellevoetsluis in late December 1944. It was found sinking 49 miles (79 km) NE of Dover on 29 December 1944, its crewman had failed to properly close the engine exhaust system and he died from resultant carbon monoxide poisoning. HMS Ready took it in tow and, even when it sank close to Dover harbour entrance, the Royal Navy raised it and subjected it to extensive trials. The pilot of Biber 90 was Joachim Langsdorff, the son of Captain Hans Langsdorff of the ill-fated Graf Spee. The story of the development of the Biber, and, in particular, the capture of the Biber 90 can be read in more detail in the IWM Review No 4 (1989)

[Norm F]

May be the type that Carsten Baldes sold is the post-war remake for the veterans after the war ??? .

When you think about it, that would make sense and explain the differences in the embroidering.

Could also explain a 6-tooth version.

Again, it boils down to faith. Undoubtedly some of the "classic" form (as defined by examples with provenence) were wartime, but we can't know if all were, just as we can't tell a 1944 Souval from a 1946 Souval. When it comes to deviations from the "classic" form we're on even shakier ground.

Best regards,
---Norm

[90th Light]

Could also explain a 6-tooth version.

Again, it boils down to faith. Undoubtedly some of the "classic" form (as defined by examples with provenence) were wartime. We just can't know if all were, just as we can't tell a 1944 Souval from a 1946 Souval. When it comes to deviations from the "classic" form we're on even shakier ground.

Best regards,
---Norm

Adreed Norm, but keep in mind that Souval acquired huge stocks of original items made before May 1945. In 1946, he was selling original items. By the 1970,s he was sell fake remakes.

One only has to see some of the original stuff that a collector like Bob Hritz got from him to see the level of originals that he had.

May be someone should ask Souval at the SOS about this badge. He will soon tell us if he sold them or not,

Chris