Sawfish patches/small battle units

[John R.]

More from the past posts of Ludwig. Again, absolute consistency in the rostrum end denticle. None of the ones deemed to be fake have this characteristic.

[John R.]

There may be duplicates in this presentation.

[John R.]

next

[John R.]

The only exception to all posts so far, including historical posts, is the patch in post 12 of this thread. The last denticle is verticle, not sloped to the sawfish with the arrowhead type design.

John

[Norm F]

The only exception to all posts so far, including historical posts, is the patch in post 12 of this thread. The last denticle is verticle, not sloped to the sawfish with the arrowhead type design.

John

Hi John,

If you look back to post #25 you'll see the comparison there showing that the one from post #12 is atypical and has only 6 "denticles" instead of the usual "7". Not the "accepted" type like the two with provenance.

If Chris could show blowups of the example from the book he mentioned maybe it would be a third example with provenance.

Best regards,
---Norm

[John R.]

So why would that one be accepted at this point? It has 6 denticles instead of 7 and the last denticle is not typical. That is another reason we need Ludwig to explain his position on it.

John

[90th Light]

So why would that one be accepted at this point? It has 6 denticles instead of 7 and the last denticle is not typical. That is another reason we need Ludwig to explain his position on it.

John

Yes I can see what you are saying John but this "exception" to the rule shown in post number 12 is not a variation. It is the same type.

All that has happened, the weaving machine embroidering the badge has become off-set and not embroidered the end of the "rostrum" & last "denticle"

It happens from time to time on other WW2 German embroidered badges.

That is the same version and maker of the "original" type.

IMO what you have identified that one should look for "7 denticles" and the angled shape at the end of the "rostrum" on this type, is a good rule of thumb for identfying this "original" (pre-May 1945) maker,

Chris

p.s. sadly I do not have that book Norm but I remember when it came out in the mid-1980's. My friend Alvin Shaw had a veteran brought back badge with the rope that had been sewn on to a zelt brought back from Italy in 1945. We compared it detail for detail and it matched up in every way. Sadly Alvin is now deceased and I do not know what happened to the badge. If I remember correctly, the veteran who had being sewing badges onto the zelt since North Africa said he got the swordfish in Austria after they moved on from Trieste in 1945.

[John R.]

Yes I can see what you are saying John but this "exception" to the rule shown in post number 12 is not a variation. It is the same type.

All that has happened, the weaving machine embroidering the badge has become off-set and not embroidered the end of the "rostrum" & last "denticle"

It happens from time to time on other WW2 German embroidered badges.

That is the same version and maker of the "original" type.

IMO what you have identified that one should look for "7 denticles" and the angled shape at the end of the "rostrum" on this type, is a good rule of thumb for identfying this "original" (pre-May 1945) maker,

Chris

p.s. sadly I do not have that book Norm but I remember when it came out in the mid-1980's. My friend Alvin Shaw had a veteran brought back badge with the rope that had been sewn on to a zelt brought back from Italy in 1945. We compared it detail for detail and it matched up in every way. Sadly Alvin is now deceased and I do not know what happened to the badge. If I remember correctly, the veteran who had being sewing badges onto the zelt since North Africa said he got the swordfish in Austria after they moved on from Trieste in 1945.

OK, I see it now. Thanks, John (Note 12/20/13--I no longer see that these are the same with a defect)

[Norm F]

There is also a grouping to K.leut Georg Meissner on Emedals which includes a sawfish badge among other things but there is no proof offered that this is a wartime example and I did not see this listed on his awards page (unless I missed it) in his post war Marine Wehrpass.
JAndrew

Here's the patch from eMedals that JAndrew mentioned. It is indeed the "accepted" type, but it comes in the company of a mixture of wartime and post-war artifacts and like JAndrew said there's no mention of his patch in the awards page. He was already an Oberleutnant in wartime and it's only a proficiency patch so maybe that doesn't qualify for mention in a Soldbuch? Mind you, the '57 ribbon bar shows a much higher level award (clasp) so it's strange that's not mentioned in his awards list.

For some reason the grouping comes with a post-war reference book on the K-Verbände.

Nothing definitive, but interesting.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Actually, maybe the list does mention the K-Verbände award? Not sure, but the entry just below the Minesweeper badge seems to say "Kampfabzeichen 1. Klasse" and something underneath it I can't make out starting with a "B". Can anyone confirm what that says?

Also, here's the book that comes with the grouping.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Can anyone confirm what that says?

Also, here's the book that comes with the grouping.

Just received this info by email:

"The words say "Kampf-Abzeichen I.Klasse Bewährungs Abzeichen".
Postwar they didn't have any miniature cloth versions so for the 1957 Spange they did use the higher metal version.

The book is just put in that grouping, the grouping was for sale by two other dealers before ...... and without the book as far as I can remember."

So that explains everything quite nicely.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Just to re-cap where we are with this thread so far:

Three examples with provenance of sorts, establishing the so-called "acceptable" type:
1) one Proficiency badge purportedly from Kapitänleutnant Meissner but from a grouping that has passed through several dealers.
2) one Level 1 badge shown in "The Kriegsmarine Awards" (obverse only)
3) one Level 3 badge from the Danish Armoury Museum
All of these show the same 7-tooth sawfish with similar stitch patterns, bobbin thread and backgrounds.

Also posted in this thread so far we've seen the following tally of "accepted" examples, with or without provenance:
1) 6 of the "accepted" proficiency badge,
2) one Level 1 (the worn one with provenance) and
3) three Level 3 patches

In addition we've seen three examples of the "6-tooth" variant, none with provenance.

Finally, we've seen 2 examples of the "stripe-back" proficiency badge (nicknamed on the basis of the horizontal white stripes created by the bobbin thread pattern on the reverse of the sawfish), and it's this controversial type that started off the whole thread. As well, the even more dubious "4-tooth" stripe-backs were mentioned in post #39.

Best regards,
---Norm

[90th Light]

That is another version of the badge on the cover of that book Norm,

strange looking Swordfish with double fins on its back and tail ???

Never seen a fish or a badge like that before,

Chris

[Norm F]

That is another version of the badge on the cover of that book Norm,

strange looking Swordfish with double fins on its back and tail ???

Never seen a fish or a badge like that before,

Chris

Agreed, but that just looks like cover art for the book since it lacks any cloth backing whatsoever.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Instituted very late in the war, 30th of November 1944, sawfish badges very seldom found their way to the frontline troops. Very few photos of soldiers wearing any grade of the badges exist.
There might be more than one producer (who can prove the contrary?), but IMO it´s not very likely.
If you find a sawfish badge awarded during the war (and not received after the war, at some veteran´s meeting!) it´s the version that I here call good.

I think Ludwig makes a very reasonable point here that's worth restating. Considering these patches were awarded so late in the war and to so few people, it seems unlikely that there would be multiple makers, and so far at least, the few examples with provenance of sorts conform to a single type of production. It also stands to reason that there would be unworn leftovers at the war's end. Clearly the proficiency badges (the most likely to be needed at first) are not that rare.

Best regards,
---Norm