Sawfish patches/small battle units

[Ludwig]

If you try to sell a 100% original Bewährungsabzeichen der K-Verbände (Sawfish cloth badge) here, you will most likely have to "go home with your hard on" (in other words: you will not get it sold), but today one of the more well known German dealers sold a fake for EUR 600.–...
P.S. To be honest, I don´t think that the dealer knew it was a fake.

[AndyC]

I´ll agree with you Ludwig


Andy

[amiklic1]

You're right.
What I have noticed, also, is the fact that sometimes I offer certain amount to a fellow collector, and it's too low for him.
Later I see that same item on a dealer's site for a bit more, which means it went for less ;-).

I will never understand that, really.

[JAndrew]

I also agree and would add a few comments. that are my own, unfounded interpretations of the circumstances as well as a suggestion.

1. There is a tendency for many collectors, both new and old, to look to a small number of dealers with good reputations as being knowledgable and therefore dependable to get original items from. On the whole these are very honest dealers and I don't believe there is intent to decieve in the vast majority of cases but nobody knows everything and so honest mistakes are sometimes made. When that occurs rarely is there a problem returning items with these guys. But we have e resource here that is wonderful so check it out first.

And might I add there are some dealers that will bring items to the forum to have an opinion on before they put it on their site. I have great respect for the ones that take the time and effort to do so.

2. The site in question seems to have a certain psychology about it that has evolved that amounts almost to a feeding frenzy on Friday at a certain time. The attitude is that if you se something you like you had better snatch it up quick because if you don't it will be gone when you come back to it. So judgement and caution take a back seat to immediate gratification.

That seems to be a strong part of human nature and collecting is certainly not the only time in life where that attitude prevails and later causes some problems!

3. The last thing would be to see if this could not be turned into a learning experience and I was wondering if Ludwig would be willing to put the pics of this item in question up against one of his originals and point out the differences. I know there are other threads on this but this item seems to have been made with a bit more care than many of the other fakes.

JAndrew

[Patrick W]

Ludwig, the badge you are referring to is original in my opinion. The basic template of the sawfish is exactly correct in design it just looks like the machine embroidered it in more sections that normal (ie, the side fin is stitched in two distinct pieces rather than the usual one). This is not something I have seen before and I have owned several and researched a lot more. If you can show me current copies doing the rounds that look like this then I will stand corrected.

[Norm F]

pictures?

[germanmedals]

You're right.
What I have noticed, also, is the fact that sometimes I offer certain amount to a fellow collector, and it's too low for him.
Later I see that same item on a dealer's site for a bit more, which means it went for less ;-).

I will never understand that, really.

He might got a packet deal or a good trade offer with the dealer, so he accepted.

[John R.]

Norm is exactly right. No pictures, no explanation. Very little effort, if any, put forth in describing why a certain artifact is period or not, or thought to be period or not, and then amazement that there is hesitancy on the part of buyers to purchase.

If items are not fully discussed, just a "take my word for it" approach, no wonder collectors avoid it. Or, depend on the dealer to decide if it is period or not.

This thread is another example of the problem with this collecting area.

John

[John R.]

He might got a packet deal or a good trade offer with the dealer, so he accepted.

Maybe. However I have seen this happen all too many times. Perhaps it has to do with the seller preferring to take a loss with the dealer over agreeing to the offer of the other collector. The seller cannot bring himself to accepting the counter offer of the collector so feels some kind of satisfaction in seeing it listed by the dealer at a higher price than originally offered collector to collector.

Strange psychology in this hobby.

John

[Ludwig]

Oh, my intention wasn´t to dig too deep into this. I just thought that the phenomenon was... funny?
I have snatched some pictures from Weitze´s homepage (I don´t have my badges handy at the moment).
First a bad one. IMO that is :-)
Very well made, but stitched in sections as Patrick says.

[Ludwig]

A good one:

[Ludwig]

Another good one:

[Ludwig]

And yet another good one:

[Ludwig]

And finally an OK Kampfabzeichen 3. Stufe:

[Jeff V]

Oh, my intention wasn´t to dig too deep into this. I just thought that the phenomenon was... funny?
I have snatched some pictures from Weitze´s homepage (I don´t have my badges handy at the moment).
First a bad one. IMO that is :-)
Very well made, but stitched in sections as Patrick says.

Hi Ludwig, your quote about "my intention wasn't to did too deep into this" says everything about the sawfish badges and your knowledge of them. You have spent a large amount of time studying these badges and yet you have posted very little for the collecting community in a forensic way to help other collectors of these pieces. I have watched your approach when it comes to these badges compared to the collectors who have gone out of their way to educate others on what makes one badge original from another. Please no words about helping the fakers, as we have seen this is B.S.
In closing, if only a few people know what makes an original an original don't complain when nobody wants to buy your patch.
jeff