S-Boat badge... opinions?

[Leroy]

Heard back from Dietrich. Here's one (an S&L!) on an unfinished DK backplate, with the raised "O" to mark where to drill out for the rivets, and another (a Zimmermann) which has had the holes for the rivets actually drilled out. (See pages 17 and 24 of Dietrich's great German Cross book.) I'd have to say, the use here was as a position marker. Notice also the "O" below the top indicator on the S&L, while the Zimmermann used an "X" for where to begin the process.

[Norm F]

Heard back from Dietrich. Here's one (an S&L!) on an unfinished DK backplate, with the raised "O" to mark where to drill out for the rivets, and another (a Zimmermann) which has had the holes for the rivets actually drilled out. (See pages 17 and 24 of Dietrich's great German Cross book.) I'd have to say, the use here was as a position marker. Notice also the "O" below the top indicator on the S&L, while the Zimmermann used an "X" for where to begin the process.

Very interesting, Gentry! Only, if I'm not mistaken, on that S&L, the four rivet locations are marked with inset circles whereas the true raised "o" mark is below the top rivet location. Again it simply seems to indicate one half of the reverse die for whatever purpose.

Fascinating that the Zimmermann has accomplished a similar purpose with an "x".

Now the million dollar question. At the risk of opening another painful can of worms, is the S&L DK plate there considered wartime, or are we in another grey area?

Best regards,
---Norm

[Leroy]

Very interesting, Gentry! Only, if I'm not mistaken, on that S&L, the four rivet locations are marked with inset circles whereas the true raised "o" mark is below the top rivet location.

Sorry, Norm, you're mistaken. The "O" marks are raised. The "X" from Zimmermann, Dietrich seems to believe, marks the area designated above it to be the first drilled in the construction process.

The S&L DK is absolutely a subject of controversy. They have been found on both "barter boards" believed to have been put together right after the war and in actual salesman sample cases. (These were all marked "4".)

Many believe, including me, that it is absurd to believe that S&L would create such a complex award, with so many dies and steps, just to sell to occupation soldiers who had no idea what it was anyway. Just a week or so ago, Gordon Williamson posted on GCA that he also believed S&L made these during the war.

I certainly have no personal proof that I can offer that this is true, except what is mentioned above. My personal conviction is that, in the worst case, S&L made these for an actually received PKZ order which was not able to be shipped. As with many things from S&L, there are postwar examples (missing the "4").

Once again, we hit a wall.

[Norm F]

...
The S&L DK is absolutely a subject of controversy. They have been found on both "barter boards" believed to have been put together right after the war and in actual salesman sample cases. (These were all marked "4".)

Many believe, including me, that it is absurd to believe that S&L would create such a complex award, with so many dies and steps, just to sell to occupation soldiers who had no idea what it was anyway. Just a week or so ago, Gordon Williamson posted on GCA that he also believed S&L made these during the war.

I certainly have no personal proof that I can offer that this is true, except what is mentioned above. My personal conviction is that, in the worst case, S&L made these for an actually received PKZ order which was not able to be shipped. As with many things from S&L, there are postwar examples (missing the "4").

Once again, we hit a wall.

But it's a soft wall!

Well, I won't belabor the point about the "o" marks on the DK, but to me there's a clear morphological difference in the dimpled rivet location marks and the true "o" mark at the 12:00 position.

Regardless, all things considered, especially in view of the "o"-marked Luftwaffe clasps and as you say complex-construction DK's which probably contain "o" marks on their innards both showing up in the S&L sales case, I have to go with the likelihood that S&L did indeed use the "o" mark in late wartime at least to a limited extent, a practise that they greatly expanded upon in their post-war production.

I think it unlikely that any of the "o"-marked S-Boats were actually awarded, especially since no 1st pattern should have been awarded after January 1943 and they would only have been for the private purchase market, but I accept that good-looking examples may be considered "wartime compatible" along with other zinc products of S&L and Souval.

So, have we finally answered Tom Y.'s question?

Once again, given that they could be pre- or post-war assembly, it's up to the collector whether that's good enough to include them in their collections.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Leroy]

Well, I won't belabor the point about the "o" marks on the DK, but to me there's a clear morphological difference in the dimpled rivet location marks and the true "o" mark at the 12:00 position.

Norm- Just to set your mind at ease, the "O" marks appear again, from a different angle (in a photo used by Dietrich to show the construction of Cupal, so the markers are not focused on). The "rivet markers" are very clearly raised off the surface of the plate. The "where to start drilling mark" for the top position rivet also appears to be raised, but I couldn't swear to it (as I could with the others). Because the "O" mark which started this discussion is the raised mark which appears on the S-Boat, I would think that's what we should be concentrating on, as that, IMO, is the "true 'O' mark" causing concern. I will see Dietrich at the MAX and will ask if I can obtain electronically the photo actually used for the book.

In reading about S&L, it seems that they used Russians as workers (I'm sure not very voluntarily on the part of the Russians). I am wondering if such usage prompted the employment of assembly guides in the form of the "O" mark which had not been used before. Just pure speculation, of course. Somewhere here I have a small booklet, in Russian, prepared for Russian workers in German factories. When I get back from the MAX, I will look for it and see if it has anything interesting in it.

Bottom line: I think Tom's badge is OK!

[Mike Kenny]

Re the US wings and the raised "o"s, they are common on later graduation wings at about the time the transition from pinbakc to clutchback was happening - they ARE guide marks in case clutchposts were affixed.

Regards
Mike

[Norm F]

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The "rivet markers" are very clearly raised off the surface of the plate. The "where to start drilling mark" for the top position rivet also appears to be raised, but I couldn't swear to it (as I could with the others). Because the "O" mark which started this discussion is the raised mark which appears on the S-Boat, I would think that's what we should be concentrating on, as that, IMO, is the "true 'O' mark" causing concern.

What a difference my other monitor makes. I agree that the rivet locators do indeed seem to be raised circular outlines. However, I still think the larger thin-rimmed one below the top rivet locator is more typical of the various other "o" marks on the S-Boats, Luftwaffe clasps and Retired Pilot badge, and has an analogous orientation function to those marks.

Not so sure it would matter with which of the four spots you start drilling the holes; it makes more sense as an indicator of "up" or "down".

Best regards,
---Norm

[Leroy]

Norm - We need actual measurements of these marks. Otherwise, we are just comparing circles on computer screens without any valid scale. I do agree with you that the mark looks the same...but we need sizes.

On S&L's postwar Oakleaves and Oakleaves and Swords, you regularly see the raised "O" (see photo below - very obviously a smaller mark than on the S-Boat). Why is this mark here? Does it tell the worker to solder the closed end of the loop to the bottom of the set so the O&S won't be upside down when hooked on?

We are missing something here (other than the connection to S&L, which I think is now established). Do these marks have totally differing meanings?

Why 2 different marks? Or are there more than just 2 sizes? Is it possible for you to post photos and measurements of the "O" marks you have encountered on postwar (57 version) badges? Are those marks the same size as those which appear on the S-Boat and the Flight Clasps? Perhaps Tom could measure the "O" marks on his as a start.

I'm off to the MAX, so will be out of the loop for a few days (or maybe I will be in the loop!).

[Norm F]

...
On S&L's postwar Oakleaves and Oakleaves and Swords, you regularly see the raised "O" (see photo below - very obviously a smaller mark than on the S-Boat). Why is this mark here? Does it tell the worker to solder the closed end of the loop to the bottom of the set so the O&S won't be upside down when hooked on?

We are missing something here (other than the connection to S&L, which I think is now established). Do these marks have totally differing meanings?

Why 2 different marks? Or are there more than just 2 sizes? Is it possible for you to post photos and measurements of the "O" marks you have encountered on postwar (57 version) badges? Are those marks the same size as those which appear on the S-Boat and the Flight Clasps? Perhaps Tom could measure the "O" marks on his as a start.

I'm off to the MAX, so will be out of the loop for a few days (or maybe I will be in the loop!).

Hi Gentry,

For sure S&L's post-war "o" marks came in different sizes, even on similar sized badges although generally smaller ones were used on the minis.

Here you see small, medium and large on some '57s, and there are variations on these as well.

I don't think the size of the mark is relevant to the meaning of it. And it's clear from the variety of locations that it had nothing specific to do with reverse hardware attachment locations (at least as far as S&Ls are concerned). That's why I theorized it had more to do with guiding the worker in orienting the reverse die when setting up the dies to begin production.

Have fun at the MAX you lucky dog.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

On this S&L '57 Luftwaffe Flak badge there are even two different sized "o" marks on the same badge!

[Norm F]

In contrast, the various "o"s in the "older" swastika-bearing badges seem more uniform. You're right of course, we need measurements, but I've tried to scale the badges roughly relative to one another, and for what it's worth the "o"s all seem quite similar (and I think similar to the one on the DK as well). At any rate, nothing like the wild variations in size we see on the '57s.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Leroy]

Great job with the photos, Norm, and I really think we're on the trail of something now! Extremely interesting to see the differences!

Out the door and on the road..................

[Norm F]

WAF member "collani" just posted an interesting U-boat mini with the "o" mark in this thread:
Unfinished u-boat mini

Although it looks big in the image, based on the images and dimensions provided in the other thread I calculate it's only about 1.8 mm. It reminds of the unfinished planchet of the Retired Pilot badge.

Best regards,
---Norm