S-Boat badge... opinions?

[Leroy]

Norm - That's a Retired Pilot and I'm guessing the "O" would have remained on the back.

[Norm F]

Norm - That's a Retired Pilot and I'm guessing the "O" would have remained on the back.

Ah, I just found the thread on GCA from Aug, 2011 in the Luftwaffe Discussion Area discussing this planchet. Very interesting, found at the Kassel show in a box with a bunch of S&L and Deschler items. So conceivably an uncommon late war S&L product perhaps after the bombing of Juncker in Feb. 1945, for the small private purchase market. That one finished example posted in the thread looks quite interesting.

I can see that the "o" mark would likely be just covered by the side of the catch plate on the finished product.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Hi Andreas,
...
Regarding the EK frame, can we tell from the frame details who was the manufacturer?

For completeness, I posted that miss-struck EK frame with the "o" mark from post #55 in the Cross section, but unfortunately it seems it doesn't match any known wartime manufacturer so we still don't yet have any documented 100% unequivocal use of the raised "o" mark on wartime awards, nor are they yet proven on any awards other than those of S&L.

I believe someone once mentioned it was found on components of the German Cross hidden by assembly? It would be nice to document if that's the case.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Leroy]

I believe someone once mentioned it was found on components of the German Cross hidden by assembly? It would be nice to document if that's the case.

Norm - Dietrich told me that.

Also, I see where Tony responded to your inquiry regarding the cross frame and indicated that it appeared to him to be a "pull" for the engraver, may not have been the actual final version of a frame, and certainly could not have been made into a cross because the flanges would have been off. So, as you say, we don't know one way or the other if it is a wartime or postwar piece, and are still in the dark!

[Norm F]

Norm - Dietrich told me that.

Also, I see where Tony responded to your inquiry regarding the cross frame and indicated that it appeared to him to be a "pull" for the engraver, may not have been the actual final version of a frame, and certainly could not have been made into a cross because the flanges would have been off. So, as you say, we don't know one way or the other if it is a wartime or postwar piece, and are still in the dark!

Hi Gentry,

Yes, we're still in the dark. I just felt it was important to note this because of the often quoted claim that the "o" mark was used in wartime by a variety of award manufacturers. At this point in time, we simply lack any evidence to support this claim, and see it only on known or suspected S&L products, including unequivocally on S&L '57s.

Maybe more evidence will surface in the future, and perhaps some German Cross components which we need to chase down, but that's all we have so far.

Cheers.
---Norm

[Leroy]

Norm - The "O" mark was used for sure by Orth (but not, apparently, in raised form) and by unknown manufacturers (but definitely wartime) in raised form. I will ask Dietrich about the markings he has seen.

I have also seen, and posted a photo of on GCA, I believe), U.S. flight wings made by a German company after the war (I think I was told Lauer) which used the raised "O" as position markers for the attachment hardware on the reverse.

[Norm F]

Norm - The "O" mark was used for sure by Orth (but not, apparently, in raised form) and by unknown manufacturers (but definitely wartime) in raised form. I will ask Dietrich about the markings he has seen.

I have also seen, and posted a photo of on GCA, I believe), U.S. flight wings made by a German company after the war (I think I was told Lauer) which used the raised "O" as position markers for the attachment hardware on the reverse.

Hi Gentry,

Of course, the punched in "O", "+" and "square" signs in Orth badges are hand done apparently after the hardware is attached and vary in location between examples, and so seem unrelated to the raised "o"s incorporated into the reverse dies which we are discussing.

Why do you say: "used...by unknown manufacturers (but definitely wartime) in raised form."? These are exactly the awards we'd like to have shown in this thread, and which so far have eluded us. Or were you referring again to the zippers?

The Lauer connection sounds interesting. Were the wings marked by Lauer or was it an "o" mark, attributed by some to Lauer?

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Hi Gentry,

The Lauer connection sounds interesting. Were the wings marked by Lauer or was it an "o" mark, attributed by some to Lauer?

Best regards,
---Norm

Found it! Darn, it's so small. Can't get a break...
Still, looks sort of like "L.CH.LAUER" on magnification. Not a war badge, but at least it seems to be another example of post-war "o" use, in this instance two "o"s on the same piece.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Leroy]

Norm - I was referring to the zipper pull, but I know it was mentioned on GCA (by Markus, I believe) as being used on a number of products, both wartime and postwar, by a number of companies. I just happened to see it on a pair of LW flight pants.

Glad you found that photo! My memory is saying that the lettering on that wing was just "STERLING" (unusual on a German piece, but perhaps not so if being made for American consumption).

I have e-mailed Dietrich (who I am sure is up to his neck shipping books) and have told him we are discussing the "O" mark again. I will advise what he says (or perhaps he will post himself).

[Norm F]

Norm - I was referring to the zipper pull, but I know it was mentioned on GCA (by Markus, I believe) as being used on a number of products, both wartime and postwar, by a number of companies. I just happened to see it on a pair of LW flight pants.

Glad you found that photo! My memory is saying that the lettering on that wing was just "STERLING" (unusual on a German piece, but perhaps not so if being made for American consumption).
...

Hm. Yes, could be "STERLING" Doesn't really look silver but might just be the photo I suppose.

Oh well, so far we have the raised "o" mark on:
1) Many verified post-war S&L '57 war badges
2) A few swastika-bearing S&L post-war badges
3) S&L attributed S-Boats of unknown time period
4) Luftwaffe clasps "probably" by S&L (based on circumstantial evidence like the S&L sales cases, sample boards and similar '57s by S&L) of unknown time period but suspected to be late war
5) zippers and possibly other non-combat badge paraphernalia as well from unknown makers during and post-war
6) a post-war set of U.S wings, possibly by L. Chr. Lauer (but not sure) who is not a known maker of any combat badges that I'm aware of.
7) whatever Dietrich can add to this

It's clear this was a very uncommon practise on war badges by anyone other than S&L, or at least S&L was the only one who commonly left the mark actually showing vs. hidden in trimmed out or covered areas on the finished product.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Leroy]

Nice summary, Norm! We'll see over time how it plays out.

Lauer may not have made war badges, but it is certainly on the list to have furnished EK's to the PKZ for award. Maybe some other members could help out.

By the way, I actually saw that U.S. wing (it belonged to a friend). Definitely silver.

[Albert]

Found it! Darn, it's so small. Can't get a break...
Still, looks sort of like "L.CH.LAUER" on magnification. Not a war badge, but at least it seems to be another example of post-war "o" use, in this instance two "o"s on the same piece.

Best regards,
---Norm

To me, the use of the two "o"s in that location strongly suggests that they were meant to be markers for the hardware assembly rather than anything else.

[Norm F]

To me, the use of the two "o"s in that location strongly suggests that they were meant to be markers for the hardware assembly rather than anything else.

Hi Albert,

Arguing against that is the hardware is mounted differently relative to the "o" marks on each side, so the marks seem to have been ignored as a guide. Furthermore, what possible guide is necessary for mounting the hardware on an unambigous insignia like this? It really can't go any way other than horizontally. Certainly, the various locations of the same "o" marks on S&L products bear no consistent relationship to hardware application.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Leroy]

Norm - Why do you think these marks are present? Are they just random, in your opinion?

[Norm F]

Norm - Why do you think these marks are present? Are they just random, in your opinion?

Good question. For the U.S. wings it's hard to say since I've never seen two "o"s on one piece before. For the S&L "o"s the odd thing is the various locations, sometimes in the top half of a badge and sometimes in the bottom half, so the only thought I could come up with that I could rationalize with the various locations on different badge lines, was a simple indicator stamped into one end of the reverse die to tell the worker in which orientation to mount the reverse die during setup - i.e. "o" mark toward the worker or "o" mark away from the worker. Just speculation of course.

Best regards,
---Norm