S-Boat badge... opinions?

[Tom Yanacek]

Thanks for posting the pictures, Norm.

OK, so this one would be considered postwar too because it has the relief 'o' marking?

Best regards,
Tom

[Tom Yanacek]

But I'm interested now in looking into the flight clasps with the "o" mark. I'll search around a bit.

Hello Norm,

Here's a thread that you can check out. I just posted this Bomber Clasp with the relief 'o' marking.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=542116

Best regards,
Tom

[Leroy]

Tom - I believe JohnT's has a very good chance of being wartime. Right now, he also has one which, because of its set-up, he has listed as a Juncker. I'm not convinced anyone really knows either way for sure.

[Tom Yanacek]

Tom - I believe JohnT's has a very good chance of being wartime. Right now, he also has one which, because of its set-up, he has listed as a Juncker. I'm not convinced anyone really knows either way for sure.

Hello Leroy,

Thanks for posting those pictures.

But now going back to the example I posted and the first example you posted. If John's example has the small 'o' in relief and yet "stands a very good chance of being wartime" then what is it about my example that makes it postwar? Is it the finish on the wreath, the finish on the hardware, or what? Those are the only differences I see. Other than that the two badges look identical, detail for detail. Not trying to be a pig head here: Only confused and wanting to learn.

Best regards,
Tom

[Norm F]

...If John's example has the small 'o' in relief and yet "stands a very good chance of being wartime" then what is it about my example that makes it postwar? Is it the finish on the wreath, the finish on the hardware, or what? Those are the only differences I see. Other than that the two badges look identical, detail for detail. Not trying to be a pig head here: Only confused and wanting to learn.

Best regards,
Tom

I agree, Tom. There's no significant difference between them, and I think Leroy feels the same about your badge as John's -- that's it's still uncertain. But whether right or wrong, the "o"-mark will always cast a pall of uncertainty in my opinion. It's Bacqueville all over again!

Here's yet another setup on the "o"-marked badge.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Can't really tell if these have the "o"-mark or not, but here's another setup, complete with the "post-war scrape", that isn't considered "wartime-compatible".

[Norm F]

And of course, the absence of the "o" mark is no guarantee of wartime production either. Here's that previously discussed version with the "Wiedmann-style" (but different from Wiedmann) hinge with the spurious L/18 mark.

[Tom Yanacek]

Hello Norm,

Please do not post any more pictures. I'm more confused now than ever.

Best regards,
Tom

[Leroy]

It IS confusing.

I did not say that yours was postwar. (I think Norm said he thought yours could be postwar.) Just one of the problems is that we haven't seen the full back of the one on the postwar-assembled "barter board" (sometimes called "salesman board") Norm showed. All we can see is the front, the pin and the catch (which seems to be the same catch and pin as both the "S&L" and the "Juncker". We need to see if there is an "O" on that badge and whether there is an oblong or a round catch plate. These boards stand the best chance of being a "snapshot" of what was in existence at the end of the war. To further complicate matters, these boards, although assembled in Ludenscheid and containing products from many Ludenscheid makers (such as S&L and FLL) also contain a few pieces from manufacturers outside that town.

My best guess is that yours (which has a nice finish) could be a wartime-produced badge from S&L.

[JustinG]

Here's photos of one of my S-Boat badge.


Regards,
JustinG

[JustinG]

some other shots.

Regards,
JustinG

[Norm F]

Thanks Justin. And although I've always liked the look of your badge, I still have trouble with the "o" mark...

As mentioned in the other thread, it seems odd that there's no "o" mark on any S&L Heer combat badge, nor on any KM badge aside from some of the S-Boats, including the very common Coastal Artillery badges which were introduced after the S-Boats.

Also, the zinc 1st pattern S-boat badges of Mayer and F&B before they moved on to the 2nd pattern are vanishingly rare, whereas the S&L zinc S-Boats are (in my opinion) too plentiful in comparison to all be produced in that same time period. After the introduction of the 2nd pattern in Jan. 1943, I can't think of any legitimate market for the 1st pattern badges, since the KM announced the switch over to 2nd pattern (hence the zinc Schwerins) and the sailors themselves preferred the 2nd pattern. This begs the question why are there so many of these "o"-marked S-Boats around compared with the ones without the "o" mark? Unless they were an afterthought for the post-war souvenir market perhaps?

Right now, whether right or wrong, I view the "o" mark on the S-Boat with the same suspicion as the Type 2 globe on S&L zinc Hilfskreuzer -- both of these features are found on the 57 badges and are anomalies that stick in my throat. For me, they fall into the same uneasy category as questionable Souvals, some flatbacks and the Bacqueville controversy.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Leroy]

Norm - The badge (shown front and back) at the top of your Post #22 is the badge sold on "emedals" and is the same as appears on the "barter board" in your earlier post.

I see the raised "O" on this badge.

[Norm F]

Norm - The badge (shown front and back) at the top of your Post #22 is the badge sold on "emedals" and is the same as appears on the "barter board" in your earlier post.

I see the raised "O" on this badge.

Yikes, you're right, it's the same badge! And it seems to have the "post-war scrape", too.

The plot thickens...clear as mud.

Mind you, we still don't know when these boards were put together, 1945? 1947? Two years would be a long enough time to rack up souvenir production for the occupying troops.

I think my brain has reached it's limit a while back.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Leroy]

The "post-war scrape" is just a theory and is not proven, as Tom Durante has acknowledged both here and in other forums. It has many good points to it, but is still very open.

Some actually believe that in British-occupied Ludenscheid, new actual die stamping began in the immediate postwar years (as in 1946,47,etc.). I personally think, as do people such as Andreas Klein, who actually interviewed people who were there at the time, that no such thing took place and that it would have been, under the circumstances and political climate then-existing, virtually suicidal for anyone to do that. Much later, yes, but not then.

These boards, according to what was related at the original auction in England, were acquired by a British Intelligence officer in the months right after the war. (Their contents, by the way, mirror acquistions by the Imperial War Museum directly from the War Department in 1946.)