"Bacqueville" Kriegsmarine Badges are...

[Chris Boonzaier]

As a non believer in these since day one, I was interested to read this.

I have posted a number of times that German regulations would never have allowed the French to make the badges and at best they could have been "theater made knockoffs" bought unofficially by the troops

However, maybe the Baqueville or Mourgeon firms actually did make these? Like the Firms in Pakistan who will make cloth badges to order, there is no reason why a fraudster could not have ordered these to be made from the firms in the 1960s.... or maybe even the firms made them on their own initiative to supply the growing collectors market some time after the war....

The answer probably lies with Baqueville.....

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

René Johnson is involved in the flooding of the market - starting from at least early 60's - of a fake family of Croix de Guerre Légionnaire called "Delande" (because it is now confirmed that "Delande" medal maker had in their archives when it was sold after the demise of the firm front/back/laurels of this fake).

It is confirmed that Johnson sold at least 2 evolutions of the "Delande" fake, and i got many testimonies of collectors/dealers who commented about the special display full of Croix de Guerre Légionnaire "Delande" that Johnson "found" and kept in his store (at least two stories, including the well known one of the widow of "Charlemagne" French Kommandeur Edgar Puaud who sold to Johnson around 50 CDGL - cf "Militaria Magazine #12", 1987).
For now i identified almost... 50 "Delande" models in collection. Which imply that i identified at least the full hoard from the Puaud widow... Non-sense.

The earliest confirmed "Delande" sold by Johnson is 1964, and it is said that the "Delande" model surfaced in the early 50's despite i strongly believe it is an error made by Robert Moreau, which study in 1983 is marred by obvious errors.

The "golden age" for Johnson was between 1964 and the end of the 60's, during that time the "Delande" switched from one type of cross to... another (cross in which the fake front/back/laurels were glued on).

Now what is interesting is that according to "Militaria Magazine #76", a schoolboy traded Fakeville badges to Johnson, which started to put them on the market (in 1972 ?). Fakeville badges that are said to come from the hoard in the Navy Ministry... Hoard that is said to have been "found" by workers in the 70's as another story goes (!), Navy Ministry which seemed to have been... looted, starting from August 1944 (testimony given to a French dealer, writer and specialist by a girl who lived the Liberation of Paris).
Now it seemed that we have a "mythical hoard", looted, found by a schoolboy, but also by workers... Hoard that provided the world with hundred if not thousand of Fakeville badges. Yeah right

I will see if i can visit the Bacqueville store to ask them in person the question, but i'm not sure that they will reply (sale of fake nazi awards is not good for business... Some stores in Paris had big problems in the 90's, ex : Europsurplus).
My question was almost rhetorical... It will be the voice of Mr. Weitze against the voice of the Bacqueville store.

Now we can already see what will be the "believers" line of defense : "your Fakevilles are fake, they are casted models from originals, but mine is original and older. And mine is coming from a well known veteran".
Same as for the Quedlinburg tinnie, the Champagne painted runes etc etc.

See You

Vince

PS : by the way we need to drop out Mourgon maker from this story. Mourgeon quality is clearly the best for the French paratrooper award badge, the firm can't have done a such horrible job. Mourgeon paratrooper award badge was done right after tWW2. The quality is obvious.

[Norm F]

Thanks for the details Vince. I wonder if that means Delande might be another candidate for the maker of these badges?

Now we can already see what will be the "believers" line of defense : "your Fakevilles are fake, they are casted models from originals, but mine is original and older. And mine is coming from a well known veteran".

No, that will not be a realistic line of defence. We already know which type are the typical examples of the "French-made" KM badges and the 2nd iteration copies of them are even worse to the naked eye. The U-Boat that Jo examined on his video is clearly a typical example, as good as they get, as is the S-Boat he's studying next.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

I wonder if that means Delande might be another candidate for the maker of these badges?

As mentioned earlier in the thread, some of these French Chasseur pins use a reverse setup similar to the KM badges. This one is unmarked but (for what it's worth) is described on French eBay as by Delande.

Best regards,
---Norm

[John_B]

I have a very simple question--......If Jo has been such a good and great asset to the collecting world ( and I believe he has been just that) Why was he banned from WAF??? Seems strange to me that a lot of people are singing his praises - but he is not allowed on here to take the applause?

[Norm F]

I have a very simple question--......If Jo has been such a good and great asset to the collecting world ( and I believe he has been just that) Why was he banned from WAF??? Seems strange to me that a lot of people are singing his praises - but he is not allowed on here to take the applause?

While there's no doubt that Jo Rivett's research has benefitted the collecting community, that question is not answerable in this sub-forum. The KM sub-forum, although subject to WAF regulations, functions more or less autonomously while limiting itself to topics specific to KM badge collecting for the benefit of collectors. Posts to do with wider forum politics and standards of conduct are to be discussed in the community sub-forums and left at the door, and will be deleted in this sub-forum.

Best regards,
---Norm

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

about "Delande", the firm did the die struck front/back/laurels for the fake CDGL, but when the archives of the firm were sold, nothing surfaced about having KM badges made, and even more importantly casted ones.

We have to keep in mind that like Jo said, no serious medal maker will produce in that way (bad casting) such badges. In 1940 or in the 1970, they could do better badges.

See You

Vince

[Norm F]

We have to keep in mind that like Jo said, no serious medal maker will produce in that way (bad casting) such badges. In 1940 or in the 1970, they could do better badges.

Hm. I don't see any moral distinction between a "serious medal maker" die striking fakes for money and one casting fakes for money. Once one has crossed the line and decided to make a fake on commission, there's no reason to hold oneself to the finest production standards.

Anyway, for now the specific maker and time frame remains pure speculation pending further data.

Best regards,
---Norm

[chrisje110]

The arguments where always against this type of badges,


Time to ask all the dealers for refunds ?

[Norm F]

Time to ask all the dealers for refunds ?

I wouldn't like to see this thread go down that road, but suffice it to say I don't think that's realistic. Like you say, there were always arguments against them from the beginning; people have been buying these old badges for decades on the basis of faith alone with their eyes wide open to the arguments. It's not like buying a Staegemeir repro without prior warning.

Best regards,
---Norm

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

The arguments where always against this type of badges

... which explain that most if not all French militaria messageboards are promoting the Fakeville badges, and that most of the voters on this topic believe that the Fakevilles are legit.

See You

Vince

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

A small « florilège » of the French “believers/promoters” on the net :

http://souvenezvous44.blogspot.fr/20...cais-sous.html
oh surprise ! also proposing for sale the badges here :
https://souvenezvous44.com/boutique/...tillery-badge/

http://atlantikwall.superforum.fr/t1...se-bacqueville

http://www.passionmilitaria.com/t432...e-kriegsmarine

and this store is have a lot of Fakevilles currently for sale :
http://www.royal-dragons.fr/fiche-ve...ille-3371.html
http://www.royal-dragons.fr/fiche-ve...ille-2989.html
http://www.royal-dragons.fr/fiche-ve...ille-2988.html
http://www.royal-dragons.fr/fiche-ve...-mer-5061.html
http://www.royal-dragons.fr/fiche-ve...ille-2708.html
http://www.royal-dragons.fr/fiche-ve...dele-1852.html

Knowing how French collectors react, it will takes years before the hard truth is accepted.

See You

Vince

[John R.]

Vince,

To be fair, the poll reflects a point in time when the member made the vote. Not all research was available, and perhaps they would vote differently today.

Norm and I will let this thread mature from here and we are waiting to see video #2. At that point, we will consider starting a new poll and see where collectors stand.

John

[GAMS1]

These badges are original and are accepted like this by most of the french collectors or dealers which are in the Hobby for a long time ...long before Internet brought informations ,positive or negative on them .
Discussing who made them ? why not . They were only later called Bacqueville as this shop has been selling some of them in the late 70's as Mr Weitze stated . And the name was french enough to embellish them !
In the early 80's "Nazi"badges slowly disappeared from the standard shops.
So i'm not surprised Bacqueville had "classified" their badges under the table to
avoid further problems with bad Nazi stuff ?
I personnally traded some in the mid 70's against french Militaria to a guy having more of them to trade or sell for a ridiculous price .
He didn't pay them actually as he has been working in this famous french Navy Ministry cellars , still full of "souvenirs" like that ! Not only german ...
It was known among the Navy OFF in this Ministry that these badges were there and more of them took some as "gifts" !
Already at that time , most of the badges had a natural patina meaning the gold colour had disappeared ...even in the small boxes !
Regarding the boxes some were still mint , some were damaged as a result of a bad storage in these cellars.
But everything totally natural and not contrived !!!!!
The french collectors didn't like them that much at that time , regarding the quality of the making and the lack of gold colour for so many of them .
Nobody was even talking about repro at that time ,collectors nor dealers ?
And not for a question of money , simply the german made badges were more
attractive ! And more valued , which is still the case nowadays !
Nick

[John T]

Magnify 100 accepted non-controversial items to use as a base for what an item surface should look like. Use different types of badges and medals so we can have different reference samples for reference. Then, when you are testing samples in your study do not just take a few of a badge but test 20 of a badge from different sources and obtained over a period of years. Run the study scientifically.

These badges have obviously been faked and that is long known but there are examples going back to vet lots. I remember owning the pictured Coastal badge in the Angolia book as well as a U-Boat badge that was a vet piece with a nice helmet.

There were so many items available back then to collectors that to think that somebody came up with the idea of making a whole series of "French Badges" to fool collectors is beyond belief. It is the same with saying that S and L never made APB badges, that they were only made for GIs, they had so much stuff laing around at the end of the war that was still being sold for years and years afterwards.