"Bacqueville" Kriegsmarine Badges are...

[scotty1418]

Since this thread has popped up to the top again (I guess someone must have voted in the poll) I thought I'd post an interesting observation on the stats so far on these "French-made" badges:
1) Believers 48.95%
2) Disbelievers 18.50%
3) in between 32.56%

Now the stats for belief in God in the European Union:
1) Believers 51%
2) Disbelievers 20%
3) in between 26%
(from Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism)

Fascinating concordance in the statistics on surveys of faith in the absence of proof. Perhaps this reflects a biological imperative in the human psyche -- there's a survival advantage to "belief" irrespective of any known absolute.

Best regards,
---Norm

I think it's a bit harsh to suggest a faith in God is parallel to a faith in the hypothesis for legitimacy of these I certainly fall into one camp on one question, and another for the latter.

PS- look at the stats for believe in the EU vs church attendance

[Norm F]

I think it's a bit harsh to suggest a faith in God is parallel to a faith in the hypothesis for legitimacy of these I certainly fall into one camp on one question, and another for the latter.

Hi scotty,

I would never suggest a concordance between belief in God and belief in "French-made" badges, but simply that survey questions relying on faith may tend to result in similar statistical proportions.

And this observation of human nature provides no weight to either side of the question of legitimacy of God or of "French-made" badges; it was just interesting to see how people vote on things we currently cannot know.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Terrence]

Perhaps, a metallurgical test might be performed. Because of the lead and zinc in the badge, the electrolytic decomposition rate of the mixed metals might be able to differentiate between 1945 and 1970. maybe..... do we have a scientific metallurgist in our midst? I have done electron microscopy but that would be of little value here.

Terrence

[Norm F]

Perhaps, a metallurgical test might be performed. Because of the lead and zinc in the badge, the electrolytic decomposition rate of the mixed metals might be able to differentiate between 1945 and 1970. maybe..... do we have a scientific metallurgist in our midst? I have done electron microscopy but that would be of little value here.

Terrence

Hi Terrence,

I'm not a metallurgist, but it stands to reason that a zinc alloy badge stored in a dry hermetically sealed container, one stored in very humid conditions and all the badges stored in conditions in between would all show different rates of decomposition, so that measuring the amount of zinc pest, bubbling, or chemical decomposition, etc., no matter how sensitive an assay, could not accurately date a badge. It's not like a calculation based on the immutable rate of decay of a radioactive isotope.

At best, one could tell if the composition of the material was one that was available for use during wartime, but I doubt that available types of zinc alloy stock, whether commercial stock or melted down from factory leftovers, would vary much between 1945 and 1965.

Now, if we were dealing with a product made out of obviously taboo materials like cartridge brass or modern epoxies, it would be a no-brainer and we wouldn't have to resort to surveys of faith. But we already know that these badges date back to at least 1970 and use methods of production that were consistent with even earlier use, so I don't believe the badges themselves carry the answer to this riddle.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Terrence]

Well written Norm. The outside environment surface rate would certainly be most problematic, most assuredly. but, the center of the metal, protected to some degree from surface variance would still decay but at a rate consistent with a time variable because of the interaction between the lead and the zinc. My chemistry knowledge is old. But I think it is worth exploring. maybe. The stories to date are all unsubstantiated. All we have is evidence collected from the scene so to speak. Maybe I have watched too much CSI. lol.... I am enjoying the conversation though. Collectively, the team will eventually solve the problem.

Terrence

[Darrell]

Norm

That PAB features the typical pin style found on repro Bacqueville badges with the slender section in the middle, garbage IMO....

They made Repro's of Repro's? Now this is confusing

[Norm F]

They made Repro's of Repro's? Now this is confusing

Hi Darrell,

Absolutely. Lots of postings in the past of the cast reproductions of the "French-made" badges, and as Patrick mentioned they have the same shape main pin as the weird fake PAB.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Repro CA and Destroyer. They're pretty easy to distinguish from the "original" versions.

[Norm F]

fake S-Boat and even the S-Boat with diamonds!

[Darrell]

But if they are fakes to begin with (IMO yes), a fake of a fake still means they are all fake

[Norm F]

But if they are fakes to begin with (IMO yes), a fake of a fake still means they are all fake

Hi Darrell,

Could be, but there's certainly a considerable difference in the amount of thought, effort and the tooling used when you compare those cast reproductions to the die-struck zincers like this one (from the e-stand not long ago).

Best regards,
---Norm

[BubbaZ]

there's certainly a considerable difference in the amount of thought, effort and the tooling used when you compare those cast reproductions to the die-struck zincers like this one (from the e-stand not long ago).

Hi Norm, what makes you say that this AC is die struck and not die cast..?
Cheers,
Hubert

[Norm F]

Hi Norm, what makes you say that this AC is die struck and not die cast..?
Cheers,
Hubert

Hi Hubert,

I was basing it on the reports from Gordon Williamson regarding the "French-made" AC and other badges, where he repeatedly describes them as struck in zinc, as well as observations on the zinc Minesweeper that was posted by Andrei here:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=622352

I've had a chance since then to study the Minesweeper in more detail and the closeup (attached) clearly shows the shear marks from the trimming die. Of course this doesn't rule out the possibility of a casting process for the planchet followed by a custom trimming stamp for both interior and exterior cutouts leaving the striations, but either way it's the product of an elaborate and complete tooling set.

As well, the finish on the Minesweeper is interesting. It appears the gilding was applied first followed by a silver metallic plating to the reverse. Just to be clear, I'm not saying this proves the badge was made in wartime, but despite it's peculiar aesthetics it does display an elaborate degree of craftsmanship not typical for most other reproductions we see. This places the "French-made" badges in a unique category, which is why I've often said this poll needs another voting category something along the lines of "unofficial production for the souvenir market, either wartime or early post-war".

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

The main pins on the "French-made" badges also show shear marks indicating the pins were die struck as well.

[BubbaZ]

Thanks for the explanation Norm I do not have any of those eyesores in my collection but on the next Kassel show I'm going to take closer look at them.
Cheers,
Hubert