"Bacqueville" Kriegsmarine Badges are...

[Patrick W]

....

[Norm F]

Hi Patrick,

That PAB features the typical pin style found on repro Bacqueville badges with the slender section in the middle, garbage IMO.

Yes, I have no doubt the PAB is a fake, and as you and John know many copies of the "French-made" badges abound, including a version of the S-Boat with diamonds.

Here are 4 cased examples that I just picked up at auction, the boxes are typical to this maker, I will endeavour to find out if this was a vet consignment- there was also 2 more being a U-boat and Destroyer that I was outbid on

Agreed, sometimes they show up in these boxes, but that doesn't really sway the debate (such as it is) one way or the other.

I have absolutely no doubt as to them being wartime, I am almost positive that a photo was posted years back showing a soldier wearing a coastal artillery badge of this type, easily recognisable due to its unique shape.

That's a bold statement that requires backup with specifics. There's no such photo that I can find on WAF, GMIC and SDA and I would have thought something like that would have spread like wildfire once it surfaced. It seems doubly unlikely since even if wartime these have never shown up in German vet groupings and were unlikely to have ever been official award pieces and so shouldn't appear on photos of men in uniform. Having said that, I'd love to see one (or two) such photos and finally have an answer! I can't think of any other type of badge seen in such abundance that has been so bereft of decent evidence for being wartime produced. Sure zinc S&L's and Souvals will always have controversy in separating their wartime from post-war production but at least we know they made them in both eras.

This thread is full of believers and non-believers but what we need is evidence. It always ends up like a debate about the existence of God between atheists and fundamentalists and we're no farther ahead. I think it's perfectly fine to believe them to be wartime produced (or not), but there's really no support for any claim of official award status since that was clearly against the rules.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

The statement from the LDO as worded would indicate that companies (foreign) produced or at least applied to produce some awards/badges at the time and there was a need to ban this practice or trend for whatever purposes (quality control-protection of German industry-production-security control etc). It is known that in Spain a number of items were made. This would seem to indicate that at least in that situation the LDO had no legal authority to stop production or chose not to press the issue.

Hi John,

Actually, if you look carefully at the wording:

"Recently, several foreign companies in the occupied territories or in friendly foreign countries applied for permission to distribute German medals and decorations, and approached German companies with a request for delivery of German medals and decorations, particularly of war medals. "

This doesn't suggest someone in France was making badges but rather someone wanted to be a distributor for German badges. It's only an extrapolation of this that suggests that foreign manufacture of war badges would naturally be forbidden as well.

But you're right it could still have occurred, non-regulation, hoping to find a market -- that's what allows the believers to still say "I believe".

With regards to the LDO's authority, don't forget that applied to the private purchase market only, and being made up of representatives of the German award industry itself it stands to reason they wouldn't have a presence in France. But the PK still controlled which companies could produce official award pieces, and the badges were then ordered from those companies directly by the OKM.

Best regards,
---Norm

[scotty1418]

I just started reading up on these and want to approach the subject from a different angle.

I focus on collecting French wartime badges and have many pieces from Mourgeon. I find it interesting no one has done a comparative study of other Mourgeon manufacture pieces to these.

From my experience Mourgeon regularly marked all of their badges (I wont say ALWAYS, but very commonly). The french system of attachment was also very distinct (generally two attachment rings or a pinback style).

The attachment on these 'Bacqueville' pieces is obviously mirroring the German design.

Just several points I wanted to bring up!

Best
Scott

[Gregorio Torres]

thank you Scott for your very important imput. One more point for those people who think that "baqueville" badges were not made during the war. IMHO, in front of every evidences the "believers" have faith only.

[Norm F]

Since this thread has popped up to the top again (I guess someone must have voted in the poll) I thought I'd post an interesting observation on the stats so far on these "French-made" badges:
1) Believers 48.95%
2) Disbelievers 18.50%
3) in between 32.56%

Now the stats for belief in God in the European Union:
1) Believers 51%
2) Disbelievers 20%
3) in between 26%
(from Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism)

Fascinating concordance in the statistics on surveys of faith in the absence of proof. Perhaps this reflects a biological imperative in the human psyche -- there's a survival advantage to "belief" irrespective of any known absolute.

Best regards,
---Norm

[BubbaZ]

Norm, this thread is ten years old. If you asked the same question today to all who voted during these years I think that the outcome could be quite opposite...
Cheers,
Hubert

[Norm F]

Norm, this thread is ten years old. If you asked the same question today to all who voted during these years I think that the outcome could be quite opposite...
Cheers,
Hubert

I don't know about that Hubert. In all that time there's nothing new under the sun other than the same old arguments, so it's still just the demographics of belief. Sure, more might agree they were never official KM awards, but the seesaw between unofficial failed wartime experiment vs. post-war fake is just the same.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Jelle M.]

It's funny how you link the French made badges with the faith in god
About the badges, i never liked them and that won't change.
Construction and details are just too crappy...

[upbeek]

Since this thread has popped up to the top again (I guess someone must have voted in the poll) I thought I'd post an interesting observation on the stats so far on these "French-made" badges:
1) Believers 48.95%
2) Disbelievers 18.50%
3) in between 32.56%

Now the stats for belief in God in the European Union:
1) Believers 51%
2) Disbelievers 20%
3) in between 26%
(from Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism)

Fascinating concordance in the statistics on surveys of faith in the absence of proof. Perhaps this reflects a biological imperative in the human psyche -- there's a survival advantage to "belief" irrespective of any known absolute.

Best regards,
---Norm

Great Norm
What an interesting observation!
Chay

[Terrence]

just an observation... has anyone else noticed that on most of the French HSF badges that the zinc coming through the gold is in the same place on most of the badges? Almost like they were all stacked with the lower edge exposed to temperature differenced moisture or something. Very unusual coincidence in my observation. More than random individual badge exposure.

Also interesting that the French made other items for the KM (e.g., pith helmets with nice collectable eagles).

Also interesting that the French had a pretty significant navy that was for the most part never incorporated into the KM. The French do things the French way. If I was a commander in the French navy and was about to be utilized in the war in cooperation with the KM, I would want the badges for the French sailors to be "uniquely French in appearance" while still being KM looking to show cooperation. Just a theory. The KM French navy was never realized, the badges, if in preparation, may also not have been utilized. Too bad some sort of metallurgical test is unable at this time to put it all to rest.

Terrence

[Norm F]

Also interesting that the French made other items for the KM (e.g., pith helmets with nice collectable eagles).

Also interesting that the French had a pretty significant navy that was for the most part never incorporated into the KM. The French do things the French way. If I was a commander in the French navy and was about to be utilized in the war in cooperation with the KM, I would want the badges for the French sailors to be "uniquely French in appearance" while still being KM looking to show cooperation. Just a theory. The KM French navy was never realized, the badges, if in preparation, may also not have been utilized. Too bad some sort of metallurgical test is unable at this time to put it all to rest.

Terrence

Hi Terrence,

It's easy to appreciate how military awards were in a whole different category from insignia and subject to stricter regulations via the PK and LDO, so the existence of French-made insignia doesn't really help us, but it's interesting to speculate and brainstorm. All we know for sure (probably) is they were never actually awarded.

I doubt a metallurgical test would help. To all appearances these badges were die struck in zinc, probably sometime before 1970, but even if a matallurgical test confirms the material, that doesn't prove they were made in wartime -- at best it only keeps them "in the running".

One thing's for sure, if these were a post-war hoax (which they still could be) it's a far more clever and elaborate hoax than any other kind of fake war badge, with a variety of badges showing consistency in production and labour intensive construction and plating, complete with a bizarre yet internally consistent aesthetic to go along with the "French-made" story. This kind of scheme seems more on par with a high-end, high-priced con than the usual KM badge fakes we see.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Terrence]

indeed, I have one HSF just to top off the collection and use it as a piece to initiate story telling about how the addition of the Vichy French fleet (3 battleships, 7 cruisers, 18 destroyers and 21 submarines) to Italy’s Regia Marina or Germany’s Kriegsmarine could have had a significant effect on the balance of power in the Mediterranean theater

with of course..... a good cigar, good scotch, and grand children always wanting to hear a good story about a badge in the collection (whether it is true or not). Mark Twain told some real whoppers. Well worth the $25 bucks I paid for the badge many years ago. Pure entertainment

Terrence

[John R.]

Perhaps, or Allied aircraft at Malta or Northern Africa would have dispensed with those capital ships just like the Japanese did to US ships at Pearl Harbor and British ships off Malaya. I think the French Navy knew exactly what the situation was and were not going to used in suicide missions against the British. Bad enough what happened to them early in the war from their point of view.

Or even Bismarck being brought down by bi-planes. Hard to believe, but there it is.

Battleships only survive with air supremacy as it turned out.

I like your theory about French made for French sailors. Interesting.

John

[scotty1418]

just an observation... has anyone else noticed that on most of the French HSF badges that the zinc coming through the gold is in the same place on most of the badges? Almost like they were all stacked with the lower edge exposed to temperature differenced moisture or something. Very unusual coincidence in my observation. More than random individual badge exposure.

Also interesting that the French made other items for the KM (e.g., pith helmets with nice collectable eagles).

Also interesting that the French had a pretty significant navy that was for the most part never incorporated into the KM. The French do things the French way. If I was a commander in the French navy and was about to be utilized in the war in cooperation with the KM, I would want the badges for the French sailors to be "uniquely French in appearance" while still being KM looking to show cooperation. Just a theory. The KM French navy was never realized, the badges, if in preparation, may also not have been utilized. Too bad some sort of metallurgical test is unable at this time to put it all to rest.

Terrence

Hello,

Following your suggestion of the French wanting 'French' badges', wouldn't these French badges be thus made in the French fabrication style that their insignia industry - already well skilled on using certain methods, systems of attachment and manufacturer's markings, was accustomed to, rather than in a style/attachment system completely foreign to any other French-issue/style/use piece?

Best,