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    #91
    Now the next point. Occasionally Schwerin marks of various types have turned up on other makers' badges. Jody I believe has a Juncker with what looks like a typical Schwerin mark which is quite a mystery.

    However, here's another Tombak Juncker with a mark that looks very much like the "medium" maker mark on your Schwerin U-Boat. Furthermore, there's this zinc Deumer which also has what looks like the same style mark.
    Attached Files

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      #92
      Here's a closeup comparing the Juncker, your Schwerin and the zinc Deumer marks.

      So not only was your badge the only Schwerin to date to show up with this mark, the same mark appearing on two other makers' badges was confusing to say the least. Either some third party post-war entrepreneur was marking U-Boats to increase their market value, or Schwerin had a separate stamp which he used on these three badges for some unexplained reason.

      Because of these inexplicable observations, it seemed prudent to leave it out of the classification system, despite the fact that you have a very nice and interesting badge there.

      Best regards,
      ---Norm
      Attached Files

      Comment

        #93
        While on the topic of anomalous maker marks, here are the only two examples to show up to date with the atypical small maker mark (Jody's from post #40 is the one on the left). As you can see they're both the Type 4 which is usually unmarked and they both are the type with flat head hinge pins.

        But look what else we find, another zinc Deumer with a Schwerin mark, this time a small mark like the two Tombak Schwerins! So now we've seen two zinc Deumers with atypical Schwerin marks stamped into them - one medium and one small.

        Best regards,
        ---Norm
        Attached Files
        Last edited by Norm F; 08-12-2015, 02:09 PM.

        Comment

          #94
          Here are the "Schwerin" marks on the two zinc Deumers for easier reference.

          We may never know the true scenario for sure, but it seems unlikely that Schwerin would acquire or produce two examples of the zinc Deumer and mark them with two different stamps which are both different from that used on the vast majority of their marked badges? It should also be mentioned that both these zinc U-Boats have the typical Deumer reverse setup with the block hinge on a rectangular base plate, wide pin and classic Lüdenscheid stamped metal catch on a round base plate. One has the cutout swastika and canon while the other is the solid variety.

          Best regards,
          ---Norm
          Attached Files
          Last edited by Norm F; 07-21-2012, 11:04 PM.

          Comment

            #95
            Good analysis Norm.

            Comment

              #96
              Thanks John.

              Also here's a closer comparison of the "small Schwerin" mark from the Tombak Type 4 Schwerin (usually unmarked) and that on the zinc Deumer. Clearly the same tool was used in my opinion.

              Best regards,
              ---Norm
              Attached Files

              Comment

                #97
                Norm,
                Thanks for this great detective work
                Cheers,
                Hubert

                Comment

                  #98
                  Hi Guys,

                  I was talking to John about a necessary revision to the Schwerin U-Boat Timeline Classification system, so here we go.

                  Firstly, we've dropped the alphabetical designations of subtypes in favour of a decimal system, more in keeping with the style of classification systems of other badges.

                  Secondly, we've streamlined the number of variations by combining the old variations 1 and 2 into one variation. The only distinction between these two types from the previous system was some variability in the eagle's neck thickness due to minor differences in hand finishing of the margins, which didn't really fit neatly into two separate categories.

                  Thirdly, we've dropped any mention of non-standard maker mark sizes from the classification system in light of the recent discussion on that topic.

                  Finally, we've added two sub-types -- Larry's Type 3.1 which he posted earlier in the thread and a zinc Type 5.2.

                  The New Schwerin U-Boat Classification System follows in the next postings. It's appended to this thread rather than starting a new thread so one can follow the history of its development over the past few years, and allow people to correlate the old terminology to the new.

                  Best regards,
                  ---Norm
                  Last edited by John R.; 07-24-2012, 10:02 PM.

                  Comment

                    #99
                    The New Schwerin U-Boat Timeline Classification

                    Type 1: Tombak, variable neck thickness due to hand finishing; block hinge with dome-head hinge pin, round-wire catch; (formerly called “1st pattern”)
                    1.1: maker marked (most common)
                    1.2: unmarked (rare)

                    Type 2: Tombak, thick neck, dome-head hinge pin, “c-shaped” flat-wire catch
                    2.1: maker marked
                    2.2: unmarked (rare)

                    Type 3: Tombak, thick neck, always unmarked, flattened-base flat-wire catch; burnished top wing feathers; (formerly called “2nd pattern”)
                    3.1: dome-head hinge pin
                    3.2: waffle/flat-head hinge pin
                    3.3: headless hinge pin

                    Type 4: Tombak, thick neck, always unmarked, flattened-base flat-wire catch, burnished top wing feathers, flipped hinge block and silvered pin
                    4.1: dome-head hinge pin
                    4.2: waffle/flat-head hinge pin
                    4.3: headless hinge pin

                    Type 5: zinc, thick neck, always unmarked, flattened-base flat-wire catch on catch plate, typical zincer Schwerin pin setup; (rare)
                    5.1: dome-head hinge pin
                    5.2: headless hinge pin
                    Last edited by Norm F; 07-24-2012, 10:02 PM.

                    Comment

                      #100
                      Type 1

                      Originally posted by Norm F View Post
                      Type 1: Tombak, variable neck thickness due to hand finishing; block hinge with dome-head hinge pin, round-wire catch; (formerly called “1st pattern”)
                      1.1: maker marked (most common)
                      1.2: unmarked (rare)
                      The Type 1 occurs in marked and unmarked subtypes, and from the reverse you can see variability in the hand finishing around the margins of the eagle's head and the cannon.
                      Attached Files
                      Last edited by Norm F; 07-24-2012, 10:13 PM.

                      Comment

                        #101
                        Type 2

                        Originally posted by Norm F View Post
                        Type 2: Tombak, thick neck, dome-head hinge pin, “c-shaped” flat-wire catch
                        2.1: maker marked
                        2.2: unmarked (rare)
                        The Type 2 also comes in marked and unmarked versions, the distinguishing feature being the "c-shaped" flat-wire catch.
                        Attached Files

                        Comment

                          #102
                          Type 3

                          Originally posted by Norm F View Post
                          Type 3: Tombak, thick neck, always unmarked, flattened-base flat-wire catch; burnished top wing feathers; (formerly called “2nd pattern”)
                          3.1: dome-head hinge pin
                          3.2: waffle/flat-head hinge pin
                          3.3: headless hinge pin
                          The Type 3 (old terminology "2nd pattern") transitions to the flat-wire catch with the flattened base and has greater consistency in the cutouts around the eagle's head and the cannon. From this point on the post-finishing burnishing was applied to the upper horizontal wing feathers as well. It's always unmarked, and the three subtypes are distinguished by their hinge pins.
                          Attached Files

                          Comment

                            #103
                            Type 4

                            Originally posted by Norm F View Post
                            Type 4: Tombak, thick neck, always unmarked, flattened-base flat-wire catch, burnished top wing feathers, flipped hinge block and silvered pin
                            4.1: dome-head hinge pin
                            4.2: waffle/flat-head hinge pin
                            4.3: headless hinge pin
                            The obvious distinguishing features here are the flipped hinge block and the silvered main pin. Once again the three subtypes are differentiated by their hinge pins.
                            Attached Files

                            Comment

                              #104
                              Type 5

                              Originally posted by Norm F View Post
                              Type 5: zinc, thick neck, always unmarked, flattened-base flat-wire catch on catch plate, typical zincer Schwerin pin setup; (rare)
                              5.1: dome-head hinge pin
                              5.2: headless hinge pin
                              The Type 5 is the rare zinc version with the typical reverse setup as seen on other Schwerin zinc badges. Once again the two subtypes are based upon the hinge pin.
                              Attached Files

                              Comment

                                #105
                                Norm

                                "Firstly, when you look closely at your badge (and you're in a better position to do this than I am) you can see a dent in the reverse across the top of the "C" and the "H". Doesn't it seem that the Schwerin mark was stamped in after this dent was there? It seems like the lettering wasn't deep enough to register in the depths of the dent?"

                                I looked at it very closely, and to be honest with you I can't tell which came first.
                                George

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