Schwerin U-Boat Timeline--Major Revision to study

[John R.]

At this point, I am back on the fence and the badge IMO could be either maker. John

[Darrell]

Where does this mm enter into the others?

[Darrell]

1. Obv.

[Darrell]

2. Rev.

[John R.]

#1 on the timeline.

[George Stimson]

"Thanks George, is it possible to provide a close up shot of the maker mark? "


You know, I can't get the pin to open on that sumbitch! (And I'm not going to try and pry the catch so that it will open. ) Maybe I can take some angled shots with my digital camera, but considering my skills at same I can't promise much....

[rhudspith]

OK George thanks for the effort but be careful, if it does not move easily then better not bother. I have straightened a few now and would recommend the only way to do it is using a small pair of automotive external circlip pliers. With these you can open up the catch without putting any force on the joint attaching the hook to the badge.

The reason for asking for the photo is that the mark is different to that i would have expected in that the font looks slightly stretched, you can see this a little if you compare the '68'

[rhudspith]

[quote=John Robinson;3060151]More than the "8" IMO:

1. Hinge upside down

Agreed but looks like the same hinge as used on all other Schwerin U-boat badges, what would a S&L hinge be expected to look like?

2. Font completely different with George's badge

Agreed font looks different to normally expected

3. Width of pin at widest point different than other Schwerin badges

Agreed not a type of pin normally used by Schwerin

5. Pin silvered, not so with other Schwerin badges

As with point 3.

I can't explain the reason George's badge is marked. There is a lot we do not know. We do know that this upside down hinge badge must be period. The residue around the catch is typical Schwerin.

Agreed that the hook is as that used by Schwerin and looking at the residue would say it was attached by Schwerin

There are not many of the upside down hinge badges out there compared to Schwerin.

Agreed not as many found as the accepted standard unmarked badge

I still believe it was a Schwerin die, another maker's reverse hardware perhaps put on by Schwerin--strictly a guess--for another maker.

Agreed badge was struck by Schwerin from their die. I beliveve there was only one die and can't see them given this to another manufacturer to use

I do not see any reason that this would be a 3rd style tombak badge by Schwerin assuming you group the the other badges by type of catch, whether marked or unmarked.

Agreed, would label this as 2 style with alternative pin arrangement

The upside down hinge style is a period badge, no question in mind about that, but I do not think the examination of the badge can lead to the conclusion that it is Schwerin. The mark is not particularly useful with George's badge. We have a similar mark on the "Juncker" style badge also--remember the one we saw at SOS Rob?

Agreed the maker mark on George's badge is not particularly useful in this debate but don't agree that one can say examination of the badge can not lead to a conclusion it is a Schwerin. We are in agreement that the badges came from a Schwerin die, the hinge and hook fitments are typical Schwerin, even the attachment of these is typical Schwerin. The only thing different is the pin and the pin only.

The reason for the hinge being upside down is very simple, this type of pin would not be used with the hinge in the standard configuration and would be too short, barely reaching the hook which would make the badge very difficult to put on and take off the uniform. This form of pin and orientation of hinge however is found on virtually all other Schwerin naval badges.

The only possible explanation, and I do not think it is a good one, is that these badges were the leftovers at the end of the tombak line and Schwerin borrowed the hardware and made the badges. How do you prove this?

Sort of agree, the pin is the key, perhaps schwerin ran out of the normally used type and got these in stock at short notice. Agreed Schwein might have borrowed hardware but only the pin, The hook is definately Schwerin and would say attached by them also, the hinge looks Schwerin, maybe need to study this area more.

So in summary, we see many other manufactured war badges with different variations to the attachments but still attribute them to one maker, why should this be any different?. In my opinion we should catagorise this badge as a Schwerin (as all but the pin can be attributed to them) with a variant pin, or even and S&L retail variant if it pleases some but can't see how we can call this an S&L badge

[Jody]

U-boat

Hello,
I do agree that the one style of badge may be by S&L (yet same die). There is so much still about these things we still donlt know or explain.

For what it is worth. Her eis my 1st pattern (yes it says Schwerin Berlin, it is just very faint).

Regards,
Jody

[Jody]

Type 2

Here is the 2nd style which John has already shown.

[Jody]

U-boat

Just for fun, where does this fit in? John and I both know the owner of this example. The stamp is similar to the smaller style as seen on my 2nd example.

[rhudspith]

Just for fun, where does this fit in? John and I both know the owner of this example. The stamp is similar to the smaller style as seen on my 2nd example.

Hi Jody, interesting badge, but no swastika or gun cut out, can you post a photo of the front, this can't be from the "Schwerin" die?

Would also like to see a side on photo of the hook, it looks like a round "c" shape not the later formed type with the flat bottom.

[Jody]

U-boat

Hello,
Here you go.

Regards,
Jody

[rhudspith]

Thanks Jody, I guessed it was going to be a "Juncker"

[Don D.]

Where does this one fit in?