Panzerabzeichen Legion Condor

[Norm F]

Here's the more commonly posted reproduction of the "Type 1, 1st pattern" badge which appears with different setups. It actually has crisper detail than the other fake but is relatively easy to spot from the different skull sutures. These seem to have been around for a long time.

[Norm F]

another hardware setup on this same type of reproduction

[Norm F]

Here's another example of a "Type 1, 2nd pattern" badge which was part of a larger grouping from Feldwebel Nicolaus Lechner for auction by Hermann-Historica in 2005:

"Tank Badge of the Legion Condor in silver (1st version), hollow stamped. Pin is a contemporary replacement, one of the lower petioles is broken off. Including the certificate for 17 June 1940 with Colonel von Thom's [sic] ink signature. Dented, small cracks."

[Legion Condor]

hello,

here's even a comparison with the piece from my post 1 and one original.
This piece with the nadelsysten me busy for some time!

some are convinced that this is varinate left an original from Spanish production, but I have my doubts.

Right an original, I think you may very well see the left shows the model no embossed feel. And right smack embossed tracks with the model.

The needle system has never liked me.

Greeting LC

[Legion Condor]

Bartz Gruppe

Hello collectors,

since so often times spoken to Bartz group. And individual pieces are shown, I show times for the whole group joy of collectors.

I think the group is fun to see sometimes as a whole.

Greeting LC

[Norm F]

here's even a comparison with the piece from my post 1 and one original.
This piece with the nadelsysten me busy for some time!

some are convinced that this is variant left an original from Spanish production, but I have my doubts.

Right an original, I think you may very well see the left shows the model no embossed feel. And right smack embossed tracks with the model.

The needle system has never liked me.

Greeting LC

Hi Hans Günter,

I've resized your photos to make it easier to compare those two badges. You said the badge on the right is "original"? Do you know some provenance for that one?

Anyway, here are some comments:
1) I think the badge on the right is tilted upwards and towards the left which is why the proportions look different from the photo of your badge.
2) If we assume that these Portuguese-made badges were cast (not struck), then it's no surprise that the amount of reverse detail could vary considerably between examples.
3) If we assume that the badges were first presented without any needle system, then it's no surprise that we see a variety of different crude needle systems applied later.

In other words, any differences between these two can be easily explained, so I don't see any reason why they couldn't both be originals. Having said that, with any "field-made" item that shows variability in production, it becomes very difficult to know if one is looking at an original or a reproduction. Therefore, provenance is very important (although it's hard to come by).

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Hello collectors,

since so often times spoken to Bartz group. And individual pieces are shown, I show times for the whole group joy of collectors.

I think the group is fun to see sometimes as a whole.

Greeting LC

Hi Hans Günter,

Amazing! Thanks for posting that grouping.

It's interesting to compare the two photos of his badge in wear -- one pre-war and one during wartime. The silhouettes look very similar but the method of attachment is different. In the first photo his badge is sewn on whereas in the second photo you can see a vertical pin system. Very interesting.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Legion Condor]

Hi Hans Günter,

I've resized your photos to make it easier to compare those two badges. You said the badge on the right is "original"? Do you know some provenance for that one?

Anyway, here are some comments:
1) I think the badge on the right is tilted upwards and towards the left which is why the proportions look different from the photo of your badge.
2) If we assume that these Portuguese-made badges were cast (not struck), then it's no surprise that the amount of reverse detail could vary considerably between examples.
3) If we assume that the badges were first presented without any needle system, then it's no surprise that we see a variety of different crude needle systems applied later.

In other words, any differences between these two can be easily explained, so I don't see any reason why they couldn't both be originals. Having said that, with any "field-made" item that shows variability in production, it becomes very difficult to know if one is looking at an original or a reproduction. Therefore, provenance is very important (although it's hard to come by).

Best regards,
---Norm

Hello NormF,

which option you keep the piece.

German?
Spain?

I want to say that has not cast pieces the German Order of industry.
These were always stamped with hollow badge.

Greeting LC

Hans Günter

[Legion Condor]

Hi Hans Günter,

Amazing! Thanks for posting that grouping.

It's interesting to compare the two photos of his badge in wear -- one pre-war and one during wartime. The silhouettes look very similar but the method of attachment is different. In the first photo his badge is sewn on whereas in the second photo you can see a vertical pin system. Very interesting.

Best regards,
---Norm

Yes, that is exactly the reason why we very often see the Spanish model with a simple needle system. It has been replaced.
This badge has make up and down a hole to determine.
Greeting LC

[Norm F]

Hello NormF,

which option you keep the piece.

German?
Spain?

I want to say that has not cast pieces the German Order of industry.
These were always stamped with hollow badge.

Greeting LC

Hans Günter

Hi Hans Günter,

I think the working theory is that all the "silver metal" Type 1 badges (both the 1st pattern and the 2nd pattern) were cast in Portugal or Spain, not Germany - but it's still only a theory. Having said that, in your last post you showed a Tombak version that requires a whole new discussion. More to come.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

...in your last post you showed a Tombak version that requires a whole new discussion. More to come.

Up until now, all the examples of Type 1 (both 1st and 2nd pattern) shown in this thread have been made out some kind of silver metal, but that last post shows a brass base metal so now we have to wonder where this one fits in.

This type is the "1st pattern" design but seems thinner (looking at the margins on the reverse) and clearly has a brass base metal. I've seen other examples of this type, again with no hardware applied or with different crude setups. So was this a different batch ordered while they were still in Spain or did these come from Germany? Or are they reproductions -- how can we know?

I haven't yet seen a Tombak/brass version of the 2nd pattern, only the 1st pattern.

Here's the same one posted as well as another example from Weitze for comparison.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

And another example of the same type (Type 1, 1st pattern in brass) that was offered by Niemann along with an award document.

An optimist would suppose that when the badges were ordered in Portugal or Spain they were produced in more than one base metal, just like the Japanese Auxiliary Cruiser badges were made in both silver and Tombak base metal.

But it's hard to know for sure...

Best regards,
---Norm

[Legion Condor]

Hi norm req,

my observations in groups and pieces of the family have always shown only a piece of what was poured.

The original version was awarded in Spain is the only piece which is poured.


All other pieces were produced and punched in Germany.
There are cast copies of the pieces that I wanted to show in my post-No. 34th
This is exactly what the piece market and other newspapers was shown in uniforms and in my post-No.39.
Here is the original image of Scherl picture service 08/03/1939, this is what you see in the uniform market. It served as a template.
Who has produced this piece is not released.

Greeting LC

Hans Günter

[Legion Condor]

Up until now, all the examples of Type 1 (both 1st and 2nd pattern) shown in this thread have been made out some kind of silver metal, but that last post shows a brass base metal so now we have to wonder where this one fits in.

This type is the "1st pattern" design but seems thinner (looking at the margins on the reverse) and clearly has a brass base metal. I've seen other examples of this type, again with no hardware applied or with different crude setups. So was this a different batch ordered while they were still in Spain or did these come from Germany? Or are they reproductions -- how can we know?

I haven't yet seen a Tombak/brass version of the 2nd pattern, only the 1st pattern.

Here's the same one posted as well as another example from Weitze for comparison.

Best regards,
---Norm

All pieces 1. Model Spain ceremony I know are not all made of silver.

The piece of Weitze his offer what you show ??????????????

[Legion Condor]

I had a conversation with the Herrn Nimmergut for PAB LC a few months ago. He told me that all the pieces were from Spain came in brass cast. Only in Germany were probably also produced pieces in silver (Juncker type) he is of opinion it was Meybauer. But I think it was not a genuine silver but new silver.

Just as my piece is.

Greeting LC

Hans günter