Panzerabzeichen Legion Condor

[Norm F]

As mentioned, the obverse is a close match but even so, there's a distinct flaw in the cast examples in which the area under the rear tank tread is filled in.

And most significantly, that flaw is absent from the period photo of this type of badge.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Legion Condor]

hello,

I think the research have the Norman and I made proves that they are copies. I had already written it at the beginning of the article. Now wirs know 100%

There was always the opinion that the cast piece this variant second model produced in Spain.

I think that's over now with the thought.

So, be careful!

Gruss LC
Hans Günter

[Leroy]

So you are saying that the cast examples of the 2nd type are fakes and all of them seem to have emerged from the Hamburg area?

[Legion Condor]

So you are saying that the cast examples of the 2nd type are fakes and all of them seem to have emerged from the Hamburg area?

hello,

yes I am 100% convinced this is the cast version a copy.
And yes, the pieces seem to have had all of your home in Hamburg!

But please draw any wrong results.

Greeting LC
Hans Günter

[Leroy]

And yes, the pieces seem to have had all of your home in Hamburg!

But please draw any wrong results.

Well, "your home in Hamburg" just now threw me for a loop! I hope you meant "their home".

As for "wrong conclusions", I'm sure no one here knows of any dealers in the Hamburg area....

[Leroy]

Well, "your home in Hamburg" just now threw me for a loop! I hope you meant "their home".

As for "wrong conclusions", I'm sure no one here knows of any dealers in the Hamburg area....

P.S. You and Norm have done a great job in this thread. It should be pinned.

[Norm F]

One more observation on the 2nd pattern badges. Here are three examples of the "good" detailed type. Notice that all three have the same type of catch. Two of the three have the same pin system while the third has an obviously re-soldered spring pin added.

When you compare the obverses of the first two badges to the period photograph from Uniformen-Markt, it seems likely that this was the original rudimentary pin system on these Type 2 badges (which was prone to failure). Notice on the original 1939 photograph that there's no pin visible in the cutout below the tank. This indicates that the catch was on the back of the tank and not on the bottom of the wreath like it was later on in badges from the mainstream manufacturers.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Leroy]

Norm - If the "good" 2nd type badges are, as I understand you, made in Germany and stamped, what German manufacturer of that time would have used such awkward attachment hardware?? -G

[Norm F]

Norm - If the "good" 2nd type badges are, as I understand you, made in Germany and stamped, what German manufacturer of that time would have used such awkward attachment hardware?? -G

Hi Gentry,

I wondered the same thing. Hans Günter and Nimmergut think the 2nd pattern was made in Germany and Bill Stump said the same thing ("Sometime prior to 1939 Von Thoma ordered an additional number of badges from Germany, the second type."), but as far as I know this hasn't been verified? It seems like lots of people tend to just lump the 1st and 2nd pattern badges together as the "Spanish version", as they were both worn pre-war before being officially recognized by the Wehrmacht. And to be honest, I still wonder about whether they were truly stamped and not just a very high quality casting method from a jeweller (better than the copies). I can't tell by looking at them and was just taking Hans Günter's word on this point.

At any rate, the 2nd pattern still wasn't made by any of the big "standard" WW2 medal makers (like Juncker, Meybauer, Schickle or S&L later on) and wasn't a war badge ordered by the Wehrmacht but rather an insignia started unofficially by von Thoma himself so who knows what small outfit may have been contracted pre-war? Both 1st and 2nd pattern badges seem to be very rare and this was 1938-39, so perhaps the maker didn't have easy access to the standard reverse setups of the later wartime industry?

Finally, as far the reverse setup goes, another possibility is they were all supplied with no reverse hardware and then the pin system was added locally (wherever that was) on a bunch of them all at the same resulting in the same look? And then one of these was later photographed for the press release?

But I'm basing all this speculation on the observation of only four examples that have been posted to date -- of these, two show the same complete setup with no extra solder and three have the same catch, one has a different pin with obvious solder signs of repair and the final example (shown here) has a completely replaced setup, again with signs of extra solder.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Leroy]

Thanks, Norm. It would be very nice to track the real source of that photo published in Uniformen-Markt. The reverse paper description doesn't have any specific nomenclature to indicate that it's an "official" government photo or press release (although I guess it could be). While the story of von Thoma having additional badges made in Germany and then bringing them back (as you mentioned, perhaps in "unfinished" condition - although you really have to wonder why go to the trouble at all of having a German firm make them but then leave them unfinished?) to Spain for distribution makes some sense, I would have thought there were proficient manufacturers available even in war-torn Spain to accomplish this. My money right now would be on production in Spain (or Portugal?)

[Legion Condor]

hello,

the stamping quality could of course also be achieved in Spain or Portugal at the time.

Example Medalle del a campa or even better Medalle militare.

That the two model originates from Germany are only guesses from old traditions.

I still had the possibility to speak with direct heirs of soldiers. I recently had the opportunity to speak with one. I also still get a badge if I wait.

Also because I was told that later that came from Germany because they were very bad prtugal, and easily broke.

And there is no badge of real silver was just out of simple metal.

It can also be good that came the badge without needle system, since the badges were almost always at war sewn on the uniform.

Maybe has a soldier in Spain after the end of the war badges equipped with this very simple needle system to carry uniforms also to the Germans. He has perhaps made a small series.

But we can 100% assume that the original pieces were punched, it was a casting process, I do not think so.

Total of but it will remain a mystery, if we do not believe the old stories.

Nimmergut, Klietmann, Orner people can not all be wrong.

I think here you just have to believe it or not!

Greeting LC

Hans Günter

[Leroy]

Total of but it will remain a mystery, if we do not believe the old stories.

Nimmergut, Klietmann, Orner people can not all be wrong.

There is a lot to be said for this.

[Norm F]

Finally, as far the reverse setup goes, another possibility is they were all supplied with no reverse hardware and then the pin system was added locally (wherever that was) on a bunch of them all at the same resulting in the same look? And then one of these was later photographed for the press release?

Further to this point, when you look at the two period photographs that exist of this type of 2nd pattern badge, they're almost identical aside from some difference in the hand cut areas between the bones and the wreath. The Uniformen-Markt photo has the pin visible as discussed before but the other badge does not. This may indicate that some had the pin applied afterwards while others did not (although it could just be that the pin was poked through the background material or is not visible because of the lighting).

That first photo was described as a pre-war photo of Paul Zündorf's badge in a previous thread - I wish we had more information on this.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Leroy]

Again, if the trouble was taken to have them made in Germany, for return to Spain, why not go ahead and attach a decent pin and catch system?

[Legion Condor]

Again, if the trouble was taken to have them made in Germany, for return to Spain, why not go ahead and attach a decent pin and catch system?

hello,

easy!
Because the needle was entfährnt systems of the Orner in Spain.
The badges were sewn directly on the uniform, mait they were not demolished.

Maybe they were smarter in the 2 series!

That's why even the simple system that was perhaps made for one or the other of the badge!

Greeting LC

Hans Günter