Panzerabzeichen Legion Condor

[Norm F]

I know 4 pieces of the variant and all appeared in Hamburg.

The by Hermann Historica and the other thing I was replaced with the needle system are original, with the other I have very strong doubts.

Greeting LC

Hans Günter

Hi Hans Günter,

I'm sorry the language barrier is making it difficult, but I think you are saying that in the photos in posts #55 and #56 the badges on the left side are cast fakes based upon the badges on the right. Correct?

And that means whenever we see a cast version of a 2nd pattern badge then that must be fake, since the 2nd pattern should only occur in stamped form (hohlgeprägt). Do I understand you correctly?

Best regards,
---Norm

[Legion Condor]

Hi Hans Günter,

I'm sorry the language barrier is making it difficult, but I think you are saying that in the photos in posts #55 and #56 the badges on the left side are cast fakes based upon the badges on the right. Correct?

And that means whenever we see a cast version of a 2nd pattern badge then that must be fake, since the 2nd pattern should only occur in stamped form (hohlgeprägt). Do I understand you correctly?

Best regards,
---Norm

100% my opinion!

Sorry my bad english!

[Legion Condor]

These are the photos that should go together. The obverse is a scan but the reverse is a photograph. The scanner cut off the bottom but the same wrinkle can be seen in the corner.

So this is the press photo used in August 15, 1939 issue of Uniformen-Markt.

Best regards,
---Norm

Yes!

[Norm F]

100% my opinion!

Hi Hans Günter,

Good, I'm glad that's clear now on the 2nd pattern badges.

So now let's go back to the question of the 1st pattern badges. These are the ones shown in all the early pre-war portrait photographs posted by Yuri D. here:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...955#post263955 and we presume were cast in Portugal or Spain (Bill Stump's anecdote says the Portuguese jeweller F. B. Da Costa but I don't know where that came from.)

Is it your opinion (and Nimmergut's) that these were cast only in brass? If you look back at posts #46 and #47, I showed the examples in silver metal and in brass. Do believe that the ones in silver metal are fakes? And if so what is the evidence for this aside from Nimmergut's opinion?

Best regards,
---Norm

[Legion Condor]

Hello NormF,

it is a good question whether the original Spanish piece was only produced in silvered messing.

Klietmann writes that the pieces in Spain was only produced in brass and new silver. Nimmer writes well, too.

1939 pieces should have been produced in silver who get all Orner.

I do not think it has to be a historical error.

Where are all the pieces?
All I know pieces from groups of silvered brass. And no other I know in real silver.
I think the pieces shown are the new silver pieces and not real silver.

Greeting LC

Hans Günter

[Norm F]

I had a conversation with Herr Nimmergut for PAB LC a few months ago. He told me that all the pieces were from Spain came in brass cast. Only in Germany were probably also produced pieces in silver (Juncker type) he is of opinion it was Meybauer. But I think it was not a genuine silver but new silver.

it is a good question whether the original Spanish piece was only produced in silvered messing.

Klietmann writes that the pieces in Spain was only produced in brass and new silver. Nimmer writes well, too.
...
I think the pieces shown are the new silver pieces and not real silver.

Hans Günter,

I'm confused. First you said the Nimmergut told you that ALL the pieces from Spain were cast in brass. But later you said the Klietmann (and Nimmergut) wrote they were produced in both brass and Neusilber.

I agree the 1st pattern pieces I showed could be Neusilber and not silver. In fact, the piece that was sold to Stan by Adrian Formann in 1992 was originally described to him as German silver (but it was also described as "struck" which is probably not correct?).

At any rate, to you accept that that original 1st pattern badges were produced in two different materials -- silver metal of some kind and brass?

Best regards,
---Norm

[Legion Condor]

Yes in the statement and what is written there are differences.

But I think it is brass and silver pieces again.
So we see it, too.

But of course it may also be that there are genuine silver, may produce a few pieces. Who knows? I just have not seen.

Greeting LC

[Norm F]

Hi Hans Günter,

Great, I think we're making good progress.

The next question:

Would you say that both types (the 1st pattern cast in Spain/Portugal) and 2nd pattern hollow-stamped (hohlgeprägt) in Germany) were worn pre-war by the soldiers in Spain and upon their return to Germany?

Bill Stump's story was that when the 1st batch of badges was gone, a 2nd batch was ordered from Germany. If true, that fits with ordering the 2nd pattern badges from Germany and receiving them in Spain. Certainly, both the 1st and 2nd pattern badges have been photographed in wear but I don't know whether or not the 2nd pattern was in wear in Spain like the 1st pattern was. Do you know anything more about this?

Best regards,
---Norm

[Legion Condor]

This is very difficult with the variant. I think it is a German production.

This variant was also born in Spain, the show many pictures with soldiers in the LCUniform.

Jacques has since worn a lot of pictures together.

I am of the opinion that the piece was brought from Germany to Spain. And given there.

That would also fit the back of the press was what aufder photo. And also to fit what was written in the Uniform makt.

But that's just my opinion, I think we will prove us can not.

Greeting LC

Hans Günter

[Stan]

I was reading this thread over the weekend and removed my LCPB from the cabinet and saw something I had never noticed before- there looks like a name scratched in the solder holding the catch.

The name appears to begin with a "V and end in an "R" but try as I may, I can't read it!

Here it is:

[Norm F]

I was reading this thread over the weekend and removed my LCPB from the cabinet and saw something I had never noticed before- there looks like a name scratched in the solder holding the catch.

The name appears to begin with a "V and end in an "R" but try as I may, I can't read it!

Hi Stan,

Nice the way he found a way to personalize it without scratching the badge itself, if only it was legible!

By the way, have you ever considered a materials analysis on your badge? It sure would be nice to know whether these 1st pattern badges were made of silver or neusilber...or even a brass core with a thick overcoating.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Legion Condor]

I was reading this thread over the weekend and removed my LCPB from the cabinet and saw something I had never noticed before- there looks like a name scratched in the solder holding the catch.

The name appears to begin with a "V and end in an "R" but try as I may, I can't read it!

Here it is:

Hi Stan,

I looked at the list of soldiers Imker/Drohne.
It could be.

Erwin Voelker 10/36 - 8/37
Werner Vietmeyer 05/37 - 02/37
Victor Horn 05/37 - 05/39

Come now only on the total number of letters.

Greeting LC

Hans Günter

[Stan]

It really is impossible to read the name so I won't even guess what it says other than the first and last letters being V & R.

Norm, I haven't had the composition tested but my own impression is that it is made of Neusilber.

Stan

[Norm F]

Hi Guys,

I'm just going back for a moment to the 2nd pattern badges presented in post #55 comparing cast to struck versions.

I'm going to post some more comparisons that highlight differences between these two types and support the assumption that the badge posted by Hans Günter at the top of the thread is actually a cast reproduction of the genuine "hohlgeprägt" version.

First the "original" stamped version compared to Hans Günter's cast version. The obverse is an excellent match and you'd be hard pressed to spot the differences but the reverse shows significant loss of detail which will be highlighted in the next posts.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Now here are two compilations comparing stamped examples to cast examples. Each of the two compilations shows a row of three stamped examples along the top and a row of three cast examples along the bottom.

First, the back of the skulls and left wreath. All the leaf veins, skull and bone ridges and teeth outlines are consistently much sharper in the stamped versions.

Second, the back of the wreath ribbon and tank. Again, big differences in the tank treads and the indentations on the back of the ribbon.